SPEAKER_00: 0:11

And now, from the Blue Ridge PBS Studios in Roanoke, Virginia, it's the Virginians of Interest Podcast with your hosts, Brian Campbell and Carthen Curran.

SPEAKER_02: 0:22

Hello, and welcome to the Virginians of Interest Podcast. My name is Brian Campbell. My friend Carthen Curran cannot be with us today. We're excited to have two special guests with us today, Stephen Wilson and Cafu Huang from the St. John's Church Foundation in Richmond. Welcome, uh Stephen and Cafu. Do you want to tell us a little bit about yourself, Stephen?

SPEAKER_03: 0:41

Sure. Well, first of all, thank you for having me on the show. Uh I've listened to quite a few episodes in the past. Um in fact, uh one of our current board members, Pam C, was on the show, and one of our past board members, uh Chris Peace, was also on the show. So uh enjoy listening to those episodes and others. Uh but yeah, we're happy to be here. A little bit about me. Uh I was actually born, I'm going to take you back to day one. I was born on the 30th anniversary of Pearl Harbor Day. Uh so that will tell you how old I am, uh, December 7, 1941. And I was born at a hospital that no longer exists. Uh that is Petersburg General Hospital, uh, just south of Richmond. Uh attended uh Chesterville County Public Schools. Uh went to college at uh Richard Bland College, which uh up until the first of July was actually Richard Bland College of William and Mary, but they are now independent. Uh, and then went on to the University of Mary, Washington, where I earned a degree in history. Uh my first job out of college uh in the summer of 1994, uh, I served as driver to the 66th governor of Virginia, Doug Wilder, when he was running for U.S. Senate. Uh, but when that campaign ended, I was looking for work. I was 22 years old and I decided to move uh up to New York City. Uh, spent all my 20s uh in New York. I had a long career uh in corporate sports hospitality marketing packages uh to major sports events to Fortune 1000 companies. Uh, had the good fortune to be able to attend 11 U.S. Opens, 10 masters tournaments, and lots of other uh big sports events. Uh but I moved back to Richmond in 2001. I've lived in the city of Richmond ever since. Um about 10 years ago, I transitioned into a nonprofit. Uh, had a stint at Richard Bland College and later at Virginia State University. And then I started working at the St. John's Church Foundation back in 2019. Uh, worked for two years as their first director of development or director of fundraising, and I was named the executive director in 2021.

SPEAKER_02: 2:42

Great. That is my story. Well, uh, we were gonna get into a lot more Patrick Henry and St. John's Church, but uh did Doug Wilder but did Doug Wilder make you sign a non-disclosure agreement? He did not make me sign a disclosure. So can you come back and tell us what it was like to spend uh three or four months with Doug Wilder? I think I can. No holes barred. I'm just just kidding. Um Kafu, do you want to talk about yourself?

SPEAKER_01: 3:02

Of course. Um I was born and raised in China. I am a new U.S. citizen as of 2019. I came to the United States in 2007 to pursue my master's degree at Northwestern University. And after that, I moved to Richmond. My full-time job is a Chinese and Spanish teacher. That's the position I was hired for to teach both languages at St. Catharine's School. It's an independent all-girls private school. And uh about three years later, I transitioned to be a full-time Chinese teacher because the Chinese program has been really growing. And uh I'm gonna start my 17th year teaching. About uh two or three years ago, I started to um volunteer for St. John's Church. I first attended their speaker event with Michael Paul Williams, and that was a sold-out event. And then I translated their tour guide to both Chinese and Spanish.

SPEAKER_02: 4:04

Well, real quickly, because this is uh I find this fascinating, so you're from China, but you you were at um because a lot of Virginians probably have not been to St. John's Church, where they we'll get into the Patrick Henry speech. How familiar were you, being from China originally, with the uh Patrick Henry speech?

SPEAKER_01: 4:19

That's what I'm going to talk about in details in my and later on during this podcast. Okay. I the Patrick Henry speech, especially the sentence, Give Me Li Liberty or Give Me Death, has a really profound impact growing up, although it was not permitted to circulate or talked about in the modern society in China.

SPEAKER_02: 4:41

Okay, I think that's what's called a tease. You're teasing us. In other words, you're going to talk about that. Okay, all right, Stephen, uh tell us more about the St. John's uh Foundation, Church Foundation.

SPEAKER_03: 4:50

Yeah, sure. Uh the St. John's Church Foundation is a nonprofit organization of 501c3. Uh it was established back in the 1930s. Uh its mission is focused in two areas, uh, one of which is education, uh, the other of which is historic preservation. Uh we, you know, through our educational programs, uh, we spread awareness about the importance of Patrick Henry's speech and its impact on the American Revolution, uh, but we also uh raise money in order to preserve the historic site where it happened. Uh so we offer speaker series. Uh for folks who are listening to this from Richmond, you may be familiar with our Liberty or Death reenactments, which feature uh nine professional actors in 1700s costumes, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, uh of course Patrick Henry. And the reenactment culminates uh with the speech in the very place where it occurred. Uh but the mission of the Foundation is one that is focused in education and historic preservation. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02: 5:44

But before we talk about the Foundation, let's talk a little bit about the church. So I've been in the church uh just until recently. I'm I'm a Virginia native, but I don't know why I didn't get in there sooner, but I just went in the last few years. Um that's the original structure, correct?

SPEAKER_03: 5:57

Aaron Ross Powell It is. Um so Richmond would have been I'm going to take you all the way back to the 1730s. Uh Richmond was founded in 1738. Uh construction on the church would have begun a little bit after that. Uh the doors to the church opened in 1741, making St. John's Church uh the oldest church in the city of Richmond. Uh so it is the original structure, although in 1741 it would have been a simple, you know, rectangular barn. Um Richmond's population back then was just 200 people, so you didn't need a big church. So it would have been much smaller than what you see today. Um it was the Henrico parish back then. You know, keep in mind that this was part of the Church of England. Uh the name St. John's Church would not have come into play until after the American Revolutionary War. Uh there was an addition put on to the church in 1772. Uh, this would have been three years before Patrick Henry's Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death Speech. That addition is important because it makes St. John's Church or the Henrico Parish the largest church, or excuse me, the largest building in Virginia west of Williamsburg. Uh, so it's big enough to accommodate all of the delegates who ended up attending the second Virginia Convention. Uh not only is St. John's the oldest church in Richmond, but it's also the oldest public cemetery or Richmond's first public cemetery. Uh some of the folks buried in the cemetery would include um an early Virginia governor, John Page, uh Edgar Allan Poe's mother, Eliza Poe, was buried there, and of course, one of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, George Wiff.

SPEAKER_02: 7:30

So real quickly, and I know we're not here to talk about Richmond history, but I do find it interesting. You know, so much of history is based in Jamestown and Reamsburg. Richmond was because it was on the James River, and so much of stuff was related to Western expansion. Why why was I we think of Richmond as the Civil War and was much bigger by the time of the Civil War? What was what was the primary interest in Richmond at the time of the building of the church?

SPEAKER_03: 8:02

Um and it was a a trading center, not it not as big as Petersburg would have become, but um it was a frontier town. And like I said, you know, 200 people would have been the size of the population of Richmond um in 1741. Now, in 1772, when that addition was put on, Richmond's population had tripled to 600. So please keep in mind that you know even when Patrick Henry delivered his speech three years later in 1775, Richmond was still a relatively very small place.

SPEAKER_02: 8:29

Gotcha, gotcha. All right. Well, tell me more about uh uh Patrick Henry and St. John's Church and everything else that you want to share with me on history, because I'm I'm ready to learn.

SPEAKER_03: 8:38

You got it. Um, I'm gonna take you through a chronology of the events uh from why don't we say late 1773 to March of 1775. I'm gonna start with the Boston Tea Party, which would have been in December of 1773. Uh we all know that the Sons of Liberty board the ships in uh the Boston Harbor. Uh they dump 342 chests of tea into the Boston Harbor. Now it's gonna take a little bit of time for word of that to travel back to England, uh, but in March of 1774, almost one year to the day before Patrick Henry's speech, Parliament is going to pass the first of uh the coercive acts. These are retaliatory measures uh aimed to punish Massachusetts for its involvement in the Boston Tea Party. Now, in the colonies, they're gonna refer to these as the intolerable acts, uh, but the coercive acts are gonna include something called the Quartering Act. Uh soldiers are gonna be sent from England to Boston, and these soldiers will be stationed in people's houses. The homeowner will have to feed these people, uh feed these soldiers in their own expense. Um the coercive acts are also gonna include the closing of the Port of Boston, uh, which is going to have, for obvious reasons, a detrimental effect on the Boston economy. Now, you may be wondering, well, what does any of this have to do with Patrick Henry? What does this have to do with give me liberty or give me death? Well, if we segue to Virginia, uh the members, the elected officials here in Virginia, the members of the House of Burgesses, are concerned about what is happening up in Massachusetts. They are monitoring the situation, and they decide in the summer of 1774 to show their solidarity towards Massachusetts by having a day of prayer and a day of fasting. And the last royal governor of Virginia, John Murray, the Earl of Dunmore, better known as Lord Dunmore, is going to retaliate against the members of the House of Burgesses for their showing of solidarity by dissolving the House of Burgesses. This is going to happen in the summer of 1774. So they no longer exist as a legal body. And this is in Williamsburg. This would be in Williamsburg, but statewide. I mean they have they have no authority legally anyway. So the members of the House of Burgesses are going to decide that they're going to continue to meet. And they don't have legal authority, but they're going to meet in a series of conventions that are known as the Virginia Conventions. Uh sometimes they're referred to as the Virginia Revolutionary Conventions. You mentioned Williamsburg. Uh Williamsburg is the site of the first Virginia Convention, which was not particularly well attended. This would have been in August of 1774. I believe, don't hold me to this, but I believe 28 delegates attended that convention. And then if we fast forward just a few months, we get to March of 1775 and we get to St. John's Church, which is the site of the second Virginia Convention. 120 delegates attend this convention. They come from all corners of the colony of Virginia. Almost every county sends two delegates, although a few counties send one, but nearly every county is going to send two delegates to this convention.

SPEAKER_02: 11:37

And it's what made them decide to have it at St. John's Church?

SPEAKER_03: 11:40

Well, reason number one is that you got a big building. So the addition was put on in 1772. And for those of you who have been to the property, this is a north-facing addition. So when you enter the property, we're located uh on Broad Street in Churchill. Churchill is actually named after St. John's Church. Uh it's the oldest neighborhood in Richmond. Uh but as you enter the property, you come up the front walkway, we are between 24th and 25th streets, and you will see the steeple. That was essentially the addition to the church. The steeple actually went in in 1829, but that that addition that was right next to the steeple was the addition. Uh but it makes um St. John's Church the largest building in Virginia west of Williamsburg, so it can accommodate the 120 delegates. That's reason number one. Uh, reason number two is that, oh, again, this is the Church of England. This is the Henrico parish, and the rector of the church, uh, his name is Reverend Miles Selden. He is uh regarded in history as the patriot parson. Uh so he is sympathetic towards the delegates' cause and he opens his doors and allows them to meet there. Uh reason number three would be uh distance from Williamsburg, the 50 miles of distance, does offer the delegates some level of protection in case the Redcoats are sent in, which ultimately does not happen.

SPEAKER_02: 12:56

Are there any other counties that like West? Is there anything much west of Richmond that there is.

SPEAKER_03: 13:01

Um so you've got delegates that are going to be attending this convention from Albemore, like Thomas Jefferson, you know, Botatot. Um yeah, all the counties west of um of Richmond will be.

SPEAKER_02: 13:13

It wasn't Dash Central, but it was then you didn't have to slop all the way to Williamsburg, that's right. Well that's the other thing, too. So I guess a lot of times uh you're educating me here that so it wasn't Patrick Henry standing up in church, it was him standing up at this convention.

SPEAKER_03: 13:27

It was him standing up in the convention, which happened to be in an active church, which actually is an active church today. I work for the St. John's Church Foundation, I'm in the business of history and Patrick Henry. Uh but St. John's Episcopal Church is an active and a diverse Episcopal parish, and people have been worshiping in that building since 1741.

SPEAKER_02: 13:46

Aaron Ross Powell Okay, great. So you've got us up to the time of the convention, so keep keep moving.

SPEAKER_03: 13:50

Sure. Uh so the big day, this is a several day convention, but the big day in history will be March the 23rd. And of course, we all know, oh, that's the day that Patrick Henry says, give me liberty or give me death. Um, but some context. Uh there are 120 delegates at the convention. Some of them are going to be revolutionaries, some of them will be loyalists, and some may be on the fence. Uh Patrick Henry is going to propose a resolution that morning that uh states that Virginia should establish a well-regulated militia and position the colony into a state of defense in preparedness for war against the mother country. So he's going to drop a bomb on the convention. And uh if you've been to our reenactment, I don't know if you've had a. I haven't, but I'm going to go now. So the reenactment will recreate the events of March 23rd. It's going to be Patrick Henry proposing his resolution, and then it's going to be the arguments both for and against that resolution. So some of the folks who are there that day on the revolutionary side, I'll give you some of the big names. George Washington will be a delegate representing Fairfax County. He is a colonel at the time. Uh Thomas Jefferson will obviously be representing Albemarle County. Richard Henry Lee, representing Westmoreland County, will second Patrick Henry's resolution. So he is strongly in favor of. Thomas Nelson, signer of the Declaration of Independence, will also be in favor of. Now, on the other side, you've got Robert Carter Nicholas of James City County. He is the treasurer of the colony. Benjamin Harrison, who lives down at Berkeley Plantation. This is Benjamin Harrison V, and Edmund Pendleton of Caroline County. These are just a few of the folks who are going to be on the other side. Loyalists. Loyalists. Yeah. Yeah. So you've got arguments for and against. And all of this will culminate with Patrick Henry standing, and he will call to the president of the convention, Peyton Randolph. Peyton Randolph will give him the floor, and you will then get the roughly eight-minute give me liberty or give me death speech.

unknown: 15:48

Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02: 15:48

What's the background on the speech? I mean, we we know a lot about uh Thomas Jefferson writing the Declaration of Independence and all the thoughts and drafts and edits that went into it. Uh is there any backstory to the speech?

SPEAKER_03: 15:59

Uh there is. Um interestingly, Patrick Henry never wrote his speeches down. And so one of the questions we get a lot is well, how do you know what he said? And Patrick Henry's first biographer, William Wirt, cobbled the speech together in the early 1800s through letters and through um, you know, interviews of people who are still living. Uh Patrick Henry said this, no, he said that, and he was able to cobble to the together the speech. So I like to say that our reenactment gives you the gist.

SPEAKER_02: 16:30

Yeah. Wow. That's pretty interesting, though. So there he didn't write stuff down. So it's not like he spent the stayed up all night and ran it by his wife and she argued with him or he whatever was in it was in his head. And it's his heart.

SPEAKER_03: 16:42

In his head and his heart, and he just got up and gave it. So I've heard um Patrick Henry, biographer and historian Dr. John Kupala say that he envisions Patrick Henry kind of pacing around Hanover County at his home at Scotchtown, kind of practicing his lines. Um perhaps he did, perhaps he was speaking from the heart. Um I will say that his first wife, he was married twice. His first wife had passed away just three weeks earlier. And just keep that in mind that you know his mental state may not have been the most sound at that time. Um but I It would have been emotional. He would have been very emotional. Uh he was emotional anyway. In fact, when he delivered speeches, he was known uh for taking off his spectacles kind of mid-speech. And folks know that uh when he did that, that meant that you know it was on. Get ready. Buckle up.

SPEAKER_02: 17:33

Yeah, okay. All right, keep going. This is great.

SPEAKER_03: 17:36

Would you like me to do the speech?

SPEAKER_02: 17:38

Well, should we say that? Well, whatever you want to do. Let me let me let me ask you this. So people forget this. I think the reason and look, and I I like history, but I was uh reminded when they did it this year that that was sort of the kickoff of our celebration of the 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. That that people don't think of you know history as linear, right? That um that this was sort of the the it like a football game. This kicked it all off. That really this was sort of like, oh boy, now we're now this is serious. So so uh well, but but Kafu, I'm I still do at what point do you want to share? You've teased us, do you think star right now? Yeah, why don't you share your part and then let's get back to once the bowl has been kicked off.

SPEAKER_01: 18:18

Yes. Um so we talk about this number a lot, 250. Um American is really a young country compared to other countries like where I'm from, China. If you go to any city, it can be a 5,000-year history behind it. However, this is the country that people want to come and live here. Why? Because of liberty, because of the freedom. And a lot of times I also right now living here in about 20 years, I have to keep reminding myself, do not take this for granted. It's precious, it's available here in this country, but it can be very fragile. Um 1989, when I was a young child, I remember my dad came home one night and told me this is before I was in even in grade school, that this is his original word. He said, if the police officer see any college student on the street, they will be shot right now. Can you imagine that kind of shock that I have and fear? And it's not until years later I realize what my dad was referring to is the Tiananmen Square protest happening after June the 4th, 1989. That is in Beijing. But my hometown is Fuzhou, it's in the southeast Strait of China, it's thousands of miles away from Beijing, but that influence spread all over China. Um the students who used their bravery wanted to protest against the tyranny um the regime and wanted to chase their freedom. However, that was, as we all know, suppressed with brutal um military force. And it was said that there are about thousands of students who died only that night in Tendam Square. And why Patrick Henry's speech has an influence in my memory when it comes to that. Um, if you go to St. John's Church website, you can actually see a very powerful photograph of students holding up a science in a six uh very dramatic bold Chinese writing brush strokes, saying, Give me a little bit, give me liberty, give me death. That is what Patrick Henry's speech, how they influenced and encouraged college students to use their young minds to stand up against brutality. Um St. Nels Church, the mission, one of their mission is to use Patrick Henry's speech to spark a global appreciation. I think that really makes sense. That is, in my opinion, not one of but the most famous speech in modern history. Um so that was 1989, long time ago. Patrick Henry's speech. Unfortunately, the protest didn't go anywhere, ended up with a lot of blood and more suppression. I grew up in China, liberty was basically non-existent. Liberty of speech, diversity of thoughts, those are hugely discouraged and suppressed in the school system growing up in the society. But just about a few years ago, 2022, Chinese people started using this phrase again. Can you guess what intrigued it? It's the COVID, zero COVID policy. Um people had enough. They were locked up in their house, constant testing. Uh lockdown leads to no food, no water, no freedom. Um and then a protest broke out in the modern city of Shanghai, where I went to attend my college and also worked there for three years. Um, the breaking point is this case in a faraway city called Urumuchi. There's a building that was locked down because of several exposure exposed cases in the building. But when a fire broke out inside the high-risk building, the local authorities still locked the door and refused people to get out. As a result, several people died, including an infant. This is a totally preventable accident, but it so ridiculously led to death. And people finally had enough in Shanghai, they went to the street and start protesting. Uh, you have to think about in China, protest requires a lot of courage. Yeah. You might lose your job.

SPEAKER_02: 23:13

You might lose your life.

SPEAKER_01: 23:14

You might lose your life. You might be thrown to jail.

SPEAKER_02: 23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 23:17

Um, but people went to the street and it was so they couldn't write anything in their um banner. So sometimes they hold up empty white piece of paper. That's their energy.

SPEAKER_02: 23:32

What I would say if I could say, what was it like when you first walked into St. John's Church for the first time?

SPEAKER_01: 23:37

Uh I was at first I was just um shocked by the beauty of the building. It was a very nice churchyard and small but mighty church.

SPEAKER_02: 23:54

That's simplistic, was what I thought when I first got there. It wasn't ornate, it was a it was simple, I thought. Yes, but powerful.

SPEAKER_01: 24:00

Yes. I absolutely um love the building and when it went inside and with the reenactment happening, all those uh reenactors acting out the second Virginia Convention, it was a very powerful reminder that don't take liberty for granted.

SPEAKER_02: 24:20

Uh thanks for sharing that story. That's a very powerful story, Stephen.

SPEAKER_03: 24:23

Yeah, and I'll I'll just add, um, as it relates to the reenactment specifically, um, for those who haven't had a chance to see it, um, do not think of actors on stage. Think um if you have a visual, um, just picture you sitting in a pew and the actors sitting all around the church in the various pews. So you could maybe be sitting behind George Washington or sitting next to Patrick Henry. It makes it um very interactive. Uh we actually ask uh the audience members to participate. And if they hear something that someone says that they like, then they are encouraged to actually speak out during the performance and say it has to be appropriate to for the times. But uh they would say something like, you know, well-spoken sir, hear here, and if they hear something they don't like, they're encouraged to do the same. You know, that he speaks treason or you know, something of that nature.

SPEAKER_02: 25:15

So post on Instagram.

SPEAKER_03: 25:18

Excuse me.

SPEAKER_02: 25:20

Thank God they're not posting on Instagram.

SPEAKER_03: 25:22

Yeah. And I also wanted to add, um, just for some context, um, March the twenty-third, the day that Patrick Henry delivers that speech is twenty-seven days. And you you referenced a football game, so we're right before kickoff, I guess. Yeah. Uh kickoff being the first shots that are fired at Lexington and in Concord.

SPEAKER_02: 25:39

What's the backup again?

SPEAKER_03: 25:39

So he gives a speech March when? He's going to give the speech on March the 23rd of 1775, and the first shots are going to be fired roughly three weeks later, 27 days later, April of 1775, at Lexington and Concord. So this is truly, you know, on the eve, you know, of the American Revolutionary War. And word actually traveled to Massachusetts, and before those shots were fired, the folks in Massachusetts knew that the resolution passed. So I've kind of given you a spoiler there. What was the what was the vote total? So we don't know the exact total because it's a voice vote, but we know that there are 120 delegates at the church, and we know that the measure passed by four or five votes. It was very close.

SPEAKER_01: 26:23

Very close.

SPEAKER_03: 26:24

Wow. And so I'll just say that you know Patrick Henry did not convince Benjamin Harrison, but he would have convinced certain delegates that were on the fence.

SPEAKER_02: 26:35

So when you do the reenactment, they do the voice vote. That's that's clearly a close voice vote.

SPEAKER_03: 26:39

Uh so it is never a close voice vote in person because the audience is participating, and the audience will all say, you know, aye. And and of course some of the actors will say nay. Uh so it is much closer in 1775 than it would be if you were to attend a remote. In modern times, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 26:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 26:58

Like when the um actors finally announced to the audience at the end that it was a close vote, people were always shocked about that because a country's destiny was decided in that very close call. Trevor Burrus, Jr.

SPEAKER_02: 27:14

Well, and since it was a clandestine group anyway, it's not like England was waiting for the vote because they didn't recognize the body to begin with, correct?

SPEAKER_03: 27:20

Aaron Ross Powell, uh That is correct. And um and also, you know, when I mentioned that word had traveled to Massachusetts, um, the impact of Patrick Henry's speech is that, you know, if there's an armed conflict, this is not going to be a regional conflict restricted to just New England. This is going to be a true American revolution. Virginia is, as I'm sure all your listeners know, uh the largest colony in area. It's the largest colony in population, it's the largest colony in wealth. So it's a big deal to have Virginia on the side of revolution.

SPEAKER_02: 27:48

Well, it's funny, we we we've had Cheryl Wilson on with the Virginia 250, and um I was a little surprised the Virginia 250 Commission is going to go all the way through Yorktown. And but so we tend to think, you know, we've just had the um this in preparation for next year's big thing at Williamsburg. But I do know that the we had in March the the Patrick Henry thing. That was really the kickoff of the 250s, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_03: 28:11

It was, and um, I'm glad you had Cheryl on the show. Uh you know, she and the folks at VA250 have been an awesome planning partner. And, you know, we had one of their signature events this year in that, you know, we had a ri multiple reenactments on the actual anniversary day, but they were a wonderful planning partner. And yes, there are lots of anniversaries coming down the road. Obviously, the the really big one is going to be the 250th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence on the 4th of July next year. Uh but ours was a really big deal. Uh back on it was uh Sunday, March the 23rd of this year, we had three reenactments. They were all sold out. Uh sold out for St. John's Church means roughly about 300 people. Uh our keynote speaker on the anniversary day, our keynote speakers were uh Carly Fiorina, who is the National Honorary Chair for VA250, uh, the governor and PBS, and here we are at PBS Studios, but PBS documentarian Ken Burns uh was our other keynote speaker. Yeah, that was kind of a big deal. Yeah, big deal. He sat right next to Patrick Henry, and uh and he said after the performance that it was one of the best uh history programs, uh living history programs that he has seen in his entire career. Aaron Powell Had Burns been to the St. John's Church before? He had not, and he he expressed to me, I'm sure he will have no problem with me saying this, he expressed to me later, he said, Man, I didn't know it was gonna be that good. And it was. Uh and and everybody listening to this show can can watch it because uh it lives um it lives on Vimeo and it lives at the uh C SPAN website, and of course it's on YouTube.

SPEAKER_02: 29:45

Uh so you can watch uh the thing we just described, you can be access it on C SPAN and You can.

SPEAKER_03: 29:51

Yeah, it's it's Vimeo, YouTube. Uh I believe it's still on the VA two fifty website. Uh it's on the C SPAN website, and this is the full program, so you can watch the keynote talks as well as the reenactment.

SPEAKER_02: 30:01

And the Burns uh I can't wait for it to come out. Uh the revolutionary thing will be this fall. I wonder how much did he say how much time he's going to give will be given to the Patrick Henry speech?

SPEAKER_03: 30:11

I know it's mentioned. I I don't know how much time.

SPEAKER_01: 30:13

Trevor Burrus And then isn't there is a connection of Kim Burns documentary and St. John's Church uh cemetery?

SPEAKER_03: 30:19

Yeah. One of the persons who he will feature in the American Revolution is the spouse of uh she's actually buried in the churchyard, but she doesn't have a gravestone. Her husband, uh Lieutenant Colonel Edward Carrington, does have a gravestone and it's a wild story about Carrington. He was at St. John's Church on March 23, 1775. According to legend, you know, he is looking into the church through an open window and he declares to those standing around him because he is so moved by Patrick Henry's words that he wants to be buried in the very spot where he stood. And that's where his gravestone is. So his his wife is the sister of John Marshall's um excuse me Carrington's wife who was featured in the American Revolution is the sister of uh John Marshall's wife. Wow. And and in fact uh John Marshall names one of his children Edward Carrington Marshall. So that tells you what he thought of Edward Carrington, but a very famous story of someone who was moved by Patrick Henry's words and is buried right outside the window where he stood.

SPEAKER_02: 31:21

Trevor Burrus Well I feel in some ways that unfortunately my friend Patrick Henry gets all this attention because of the speech but then gets sort of overwhelmed by everybody else from there on forward what was what happened to Patrick Henry after the speech?

SPEAKER_03: 31:35

Aaron Ross Powell Well Patrick Henry uh goes on to become the first governor of an independent and armed Virginia So I I think nationally he doesn't get his just due because he didn't hold national office. He only left the you know the state of Virginia I think two or three times in his whole life. But he is um as John Kukla says you cannot think of the American Revolution without thinking of Virginia and you cannot think of Virginia without thinking of Patrick Henry.

SPEAKER_02: 32:02

Yeah. So he was the first governor revolutionary governor of Virginia. That's correct. And what what happened after that and what what happened with the rest of his life?

SPEAKER_03: 32:12

Well he you know he served several terms as governor um he moved around a lot and in fact you know he kept going west um his final home well he he lived in Hanover at the time of the the speech at Scotchtown but then he moved out to Prince Edward County he eventually moves out to a place called Red Hill in Brookneal Virginia so for those of you know Brookneal I mean it's you know it's a pretty rural place now. I can only imagine what it would have been like back then. He lived to I think 69 don't don't hold me to that um but he didn't live you know real real old why was he why was he on this westward move and did he and did you said he did he remarry? He did uh he had a second wife and he ends up having I want to make sure I got my numbers right on this 17 children uh almost an equal amount with each wife um and I believe the number is 77 grandchildren and once you get into great grandchildren you're talking about awfully big numbers uh so we we actually hear oh I'm a I'm a descendant of Patrick Henry.

SPEAKER_02: 33:14

Give me liberty give me paternity I didn't realize he was that prolific. Uh wow that's interesting. Um so yeah he sort of fades though that's it that it just is a as a figure right I mean if we think about he gets a lot of attention for the speech and and uh what was real quickly and then we'll move on to what you want to talk about before that. I mean what what what what was his background he was he he was a native of Hanover.

SPEAKER_03: 33:37

He was uh so country lawyer um who was 38 years old at the time of the speech um and uh you know was a Burgess was you know an elected official and uh yeah just uh considered the greatest or water in Virginia Richard Henry Lee would be generally considered the second greatest or writer in Virginia but um you know a well respected but fairly young attorney at the time of the speech.

SPEAKER_02: 34:00

Trevor Burrus So the revolutionary people would have been comfortable with him if they somebody was going to say we need somebody to give up a stem winder today that everybody would say well that Patrick Henry's our guy.

SPEAKER_03: 34:09

Trevor Burrus Well you know it's interesting because you know Patrick Henry we'll we'll get to the speech here in a few minutes um but he starts the speech very I guess I would say deferential and respectful to those other delegates who were in attendance. They were friends. They've all known each other friends but there are also many delegates who are significantly older and more senior to him and he's showing respect but he's about to you know really get wild um to try to convince his fellow delegates that his way is the right way.

SPEAKER_02: 34:39

Yeah. That's interesting. Well before we get into the speech because I know you're gonna you're gonna do some reenactment here for those we we're only on the air we don't you are wearing a powdered wig and you have buckled shoes. No you don't have any of that but I'm just kidding. Well what else do we need to know before you get into the speech about uh Patrick Henry and St. John's Church. First of all it is an active church so um if you come on Sundays during church time there may be church going on. That's right.

SPEAKER_01: 35:04

Um what are the other uh hours of uh visitation there are lots of um very fun and engaging events happening at St. John's Church first of all throughout the weekdays and weekends there are tours going on you can uh pop in and you can have a full on-blown um one-hour church tools and where you get to know the history of the Trevor Burrus tell us a little bit about that because I looked online last night in anticipation I saw people going into catacombs or basements or what's that all about oh that's a one of our fun ideas that's even come out is called a behind the scenes tour. You want to talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_03: 35:40

Sure. We offered our first behind the scenes tour just a few weeks ago we've got I think you saw the the promo for the next one uh it is essentially happy hour in the churchyard once the gates are closed so it's an after hours happy hour uh 10-12 people not not a big crowd uh they get a a churchyard tour we go into the church uh yours truly performs the give me liberty or give me deaf speech uh we'll have another actor there actually in costume uh to provide the voice of opposition we will go up into the bell tower and ring the church bell uh so if someone is selected to do that we go under the church and I think that's the photo you saw uh and actually see graves that are underneath the church because again if you think of a small church in 1741 that got a lot bigger through additions when these additions were put on they covered up some graves and so we go under the the south facing addition and check out these graves that are underneath the church and then we wrap up by actually visiting the actor's studio which is a nice way to say the dressing room and we go check out the 1700s costumes and folks actually get to try on wigs and have some funny photos. Is drinking involved drinking is definitely involved drinking is involved before because we have happy hour uh and and drinking will probably not me uh but drinking will probably be involved afterwards as well well it's not a Baptist church it's an episcopal church right I mean that that I I I don't I'm I don't know what what days of the week did does this occur on? Uh so the the behind the scenes tours are just select dates whenever we decide to have one uh we offer tours on Fridays Saturdays Sundays and Mondays uh next is September 19th that's correct yeah Friday and all this is on your website all this is on the website uh we have Liberty or Death reenactments every Sunday from Memorial Day uh through to Labor Day so for those of you listening uh depending on when this comes out there'll be opportunities for folks to check out the Liberty or Death Reenactment. Uh and then we have speaker programs. We had Dr. Woody Holton recently just about a week and a half or two weeks ago today um Tim Kane was there, U.S. Senator his wife Ann Holton, obviously former first lady introduced her brother, a former first lady who I believe has been on this show, Jeannie Belial was in attendance. What was Woody talking about? I saw that what was he so he he gave a talk on his book Abigail Adams which has been out for about 15 years and he focused and that that book won the Bancroft prize from Columbia University as I mean a heck of a book. But he focused on Abigail Adams business acumen and I will tell you if you've never listened to Woody talk he is downright hilarious. Good. But some of our other speakers have been um uh George Allen obviously you know 67th governor of Virginia uh we've had uh Khu mention Michael Paul Williams the Pulitzer winner from the Richmond Times dispatch uh we've had Doug Wilder 66th six 66th governor of Virginia uh we had Dr.

SPEAKER_02: 38:35

Kenneth Russo uh past president of Washington Lee University so those are just a few of our recent speakers now is this more of the related work of the foundation so the church is doing its thing and the foundation is doing more of this external relations work to and also your foundation which means you raise money. That's right. So if somebody also were to think you know this this is a look your story Khufu is very moving about uh which uh you know th this this person and this church has worldwide implications not just national implications so it is a not just a Virginia treasure but a national treasure so people should national people should support it. So um so people can do that through all sorts of means but most of which can be accessed to your website.

SPEAKER_03: 39:15

That's correct. And uh and yes um the the speaker programs are going to be put on by the St. John's Church Foundation that the church itself the Episcopal church is going to be involved with you know the religious activities which will be every Sunday morning at 1030. All of the educational programs as it relates to history are going to be the St. John's Church Foundation and I will add that uh we receive zero government support and uh our programs, our ticket sales, our gift shop sales um count about 40 percent of our operating budget. So the the rest of our funds are going to be private fundraising.

SPEAKER_02: 39:47

Right.

SPEAKER_03: 39:47

That's gonna be to not only put on the reenactments but that's also going to be to repair stained glass windows and to repair gravestones and do all the historic preservation work.

SPEAKER_01: 39:55

Trevor Burrus Or um I I have to add that Stephen has been doing a hell of a job of promoting St. John's Church and the history and educational aspect of the foundation things like going out to Roanoke today. Not here, exactly and going around the state um to talk about Patrick Henry and talk about St. John's Church, inviting people to come to the site and at firsthand experience the powerful message that Patrick Henry delivered 250 years ago.

SPEAKER_02: 40:26

Well before we uh ask we we could hand the floor to Mr Henry from Hanover, uh the honorable Mr. Henry, um but but what happened? But was there but did the church just kind of live there? Was there a foundation before you or but it just but you've kind of really kicked it in the rear end and and added some this this party thing where people are drinking and going to catacombs really sounds fun to me.

SPEAKER_03: 40:48

The foundation has been around since the 1930s uh so it's been doing its thing for a long time um you know we're just trying to we're trying to spread awareness and increase uh you know folks' awareness about the importance of Patrick Henry's speech and its impact on the American Revolution and so that means more that means you know bigger names for the speaker programs. It means doing fun things like the behind the scenes tour. It means doing more reenactments it might mean take the show on the road and it might mean doing a lot of interviews like this one. I do have to plug my sponsor Americana Corner or Americana Corner dot com provided us with a very generous grant earlier this year that allows me to do this this type of educational outreach and travel the state to talk about Patrick Henry speech.

SPEAKER_02: 41:31

Well that's great good for them. All right so if if if we threw plugging and telling stories, I think we're going to um who would have recognized uh Mr. Henry uh who would have been the person let's really do this thing right?

SPEAKER_03: 41:43

So I'll play the role of whoever calls in the US Okay so you're gonna be the president of the convention uh you are Peyton Randolph from Wimsburg. Uh I will call to you um and ask for the floor and you will give me the floor. So uh Mr. President Mr. Henry thank you Mr. President no man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism as well as the abilities of the very worthy gentleman who had just addressed the house a different men oftentimes see the same subject in different lights so I shall hope that it not be thought of as disrespectful to those gentlemen if entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony the question before the house is one of awful moment to our country for my part I shall consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way in which we can hope to arrive at the truth and to fulfill that great responsibility which we owe to God and to our country shall I hold back my opinions at such a time as this for fear of giving offense? I shall consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country and of an act of disloyalty against the Majesty of heaven who I revere above all earthly kings. And I'm gonna stop right there I I just wanted to kind of set the stage um you know no man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism and the abilities of the very worthy gentleman who have just addressed the house. He is showing deference and hopefully you will corroborate I did not look at a note. No that was good you're good keep rolling all right so we're gonna fast forward uh to the to the end of the speech they tell us sir that we are weak unable to cope with so formidable an adversary but when shall we be stronger? Will it be in the next week or in the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed and a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs hugging the delusive phantom of hope until our enemies have bound and shackled us hand in foot? No we are not weak if we make a proper use of those things which the God of nature hath placed in our power three millions of people armed in the holy cause of liberty and in such a country as to which we possess are invincible by any force which our enemies may send against us besides sir we will not fight our battles alone there is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us the battle sir is not to the strong alone it is to the vigilant the active the brave besides sir we have no election even if we were base enough to desire it it is already too late to retire from the contest there is no retreat but in submission and slavery our chains are forged their clanking to be heard upon the plains of Boston the war is inevitable and let it come I repeat it let it come it is in vain to extenuate the matter gentlemen may cry peace peace but there is no peace the war has actually begun the next gale that sweeps from the north shall bring to our ears the crash of resounding arms our brethren already in the field why stand we here idle what is it that the gentlemen wish what would they have is life so dear or peace so sweet as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?

SPEAKER_02: 46:17

Forbidden Almighty God I know not what course others may take but as for me give me liberty or give me death well I'm not sure uh how we topped that um I I was going to close by saying we've had the luck of having uh two lovely guests today but I'd say we've had the luck of having three lovely guests today as a K Foo, Stephen and the honorable gentleman from Hanover, Mr. Henry has also been with us if not in spirit today. That was great, by the way. You do a terrific job. But you you do you ever get in costume to do it?

SPEAKER_03: 46:54

I do. I get in costume fairly regularly I perform the speech when I do speaking engagement. So if I'm you know speaking to let's say a a DAR, Daughters of the American Revolution chapter, an SAR chapter Sons of the Revolution, um Rotary Club Kowanas, um yeah I'll get in in costume. Now what I I have not done and I probably I shouldn't say probably I may not ever do is actually to join the reenactment cast. I think that's the job of the actors my job is something different. I would love to do it um but I may not ever do that.

SPEAKER_02: 47:26

Correct well what did uh well one last question what did Patrick Henry look like? You're a tall strapping guy? Was he a tall strapping guy?

SPEAKER_03: 47:32

According to the the painting in my office he is he really about your size or was he because it's well so I'm six feet a half inch or so I I don't think he was quite that tall. Okay but the photos that I've seen of or not photos but the paintings I've seen of him look like he was a a reasonably tall kind of So he didn't look like John Adams in other words he did look like John Adams.

SPEAKER_02: 47:54

Yes okay gotcha okay good this is look this has been a real treat. I feel literally uh and Kafu I'm glad you added your a part to this too because I feel literally like uh you're you're a Virginian too you're a new Virginian you had an old Virginian but uh new Virginians are just as good as old Virginians and and I also feel in some ways like you remind us of why we should all be happy to be here. And we also think that Virginia's really old and you remind us that at least as a as a as a government we're not that old compared to where you came from. So I really appreciate your being with us today.

SPEAKER_03: 48:23

Anything else either one of you would like to add uh yeah uh just our our website address historic st johnschurch dot org uh the saint is abbreviated so it will be historic s t johnsj o h n s church dot org um you know you can purchase tickets to a reenactment or a speaker program if you like what you hear, you like you know the work that we take on is certainly you know online donations are appreciated. But we'd love to see you. Oh and I will add that we are a significant tourism driver for Richmond and for Virginia. We have about 35,000 visitors per year and we are actually on the cover we're one of three covers for Virginia's for lovers or Virginia tourism for their 2025 uh official travel guide.

SPEAKER_02: 49:05

Well I'll say uh if you have been before go again and if you have not been get there as quickly as you can.

SPEAKER_03: 49:12

And I hope to see you there soon I'm gonna come to that thing where there's drinking and catacomb visiting so I can tell you that your colleague Mr Curran uh has been to our speaker programs many times.

SPEAKER_02: 49:23

Well there's drinking and catacomb visiting I'm sure he's gonna be there uh well I know he he actually raves about it that's why I'm sorry he can't be here today but but look he's uh he's been an enthusiast he's always trying to get me to go and it just hasn't worked out timing wise but uh I want to add my name to the enthusiastic group of supporters for both of you so thank you for being here with us today.

SPEAKER_03: 49:42

And thanks for having us.

SPEAKER_02: 49:43

Yeah thank you for joining the Virginians of interest podcast if you like what you've heard today please like subscribe and download our podcast.

SPEAKER_00: 49:49

Thank you for listening to the Virginians of interest podcast. To hear other episodes of this podcast head to Virginiansofinterest dot com