Speaker 2: 0:12

And now from the Blue Ridge PBS studios in Roanoke, virginia. It's the Virginians of Interest podcast, with your hosts Brian Campbell and Karthin Curran.

Speaker 1: 0:22

Hello and welcome to the Virginians of Interest podcast. My name is Brian Campbell. I'm here with my friend today, Karthin Curran. We have a guest who actually was with us on one of our very first podcasts, who we're lucky to have back today. Carthen, would you like to introduce our guest?

Speaker 3: 0:32

Thank you, Brian. Dwayne Yancey is with us, the founder of Cardinal News. Actually, Dwayne was our first guest, if I'm not mistaken I think he was it was our first guest.

Speaker 4: 0:50

Welcome back, dwayne, and you've survived that. Apparently, we've survived. Yeah, our ratings have never been higher.

Speaker 3: 0:53

The way you're telling me is I had the lowest ratings. No, no, I can only go up from here. You were the best. You were the best. Let's begin. Just before we went on the air, we were talking about an anniversary. Coming up with Cardinal News, which is, I think, by anybody's standard, has been a tremendous success, and both Brian and I are subscribers and I look forward to reading it every time I get it.

Speaker 4: 1:17

You want to comment on the pending. Three years has gone by. We turned three in September, we'll be four this September. Funny how that works. We blew past our five-year goals in 18 months, and so everything since then has been uncharted territory. We started with two reporters, we now have nine, with the 10th coming on board in July.

Speaker 3: 1:40

So it's just a tremendous story and the focus is still southwest and south-south Virginia, correct? And if I'm not mistaken, the last time we were together I think you indicated that the largest readership was actually in the Richmond metropolitan area.

Speaker 4: 1:59

The amazing thing that we had never counted on was we've developed a statewide audience. Our focus is strictly southwest and southside. Our focus is strictly southwest and south side. I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but our biggest audience is, not surprisingly, the Roanoke-New River area, biggest metro area in the western part of the state, but number two is usually a tie between Richmond and northern Virginia.

Speaker 4: 2:25

Now, granted, those are big places, but, as I tell people, we're not writing about Fairfax County, we're writing about Franklin County. And I often ask those people I mean, I heard from a reader today in Alexandria I often ask them why are you reading us? Because we're not writing about you. And their answer is well, you're telling us about a part of the state we know nothing about. And their answer is well, you're telling us about a part of the state we know nothing about. But also we cover state government, and so, while we might rag-a-bag an issue through the lens of Southwest and Southside, the governor is everybody's governor, the General Assembly is everybody's General Assembly. So what they do out here matters elsewhere.

Speaker 3: 3:11

I think it can be clearly said that Cardinal News really has brought the Commonwealth together in a respect.

Speaker 4: 3:21

The biggest compliment we've gotten. I was at a reception a few years ago in Richmond. A fellow came up to me and said wow, you have really changed my impression of Danville, which I took as a great compliment. You know we are not your Chamber of Commerce publication. You know we're not here to be cheerleaders where there's nothing to cheer for. But ours is a part of the state that is very easy to stereotype. Ours is a part of the state that is very easy to stereotype and you know we are trying to call attention to, you know, sort of the true facts on the ground. Some are favorable, some may not be, but you know paying an accurate and, you know therefore, nuanced picture. And in the case of Danville, many people's impression of Danville is 25 years ago, when the economy there collapsed with textiles. Right, danville has a and sort of everybody in Virginia knows that. What is less well-known, but which you know apparently we were making better known, is, you know Danville is a comeback story.

Speaker 3: 4:22

Absolutely, it's a success story. Well and very quickly. I'm sorry, brian.

Speaker 1: 4:26

No, it's good.

Speaker 3: 4:27

But I was going to ask you this question and I didn't plan to do it now, but now that you brought that up. 25 years ago I was appointed by Jim Gilmore to be the first director of the Virginia Tobacco Commission and we both know where things were in Southside and Southwest Gotten good, textiles, tobacco, coal everything was on a decline. So my question is 25 years hence, can it be said that Southwest and Southside is not in a decline and that it's in a more upward economically speaking, and perhaps we can touch on whether education and other segments? But do you see that sense of renaissance that the two regions are moving in the right direction?

Speaker 4: 5:19

Generally speaking. Yes, I mean I could write column after column about that and give a more nuanced picture, locality by locality. You know you look at some places such as Buchanan County are probably still in a downward trend, just looking at, you know, population outflows. But others, you know we mentioned Danville and, yeah, I keep coming back to that yeah, bristol, you know Danville is a success story. It has rebuilt its economy around advanced manufacturing. It has more people moving.

Speaker 4: 5:56

Yeah, what I always look at with population is not the. You know it's very easy to look at the overall. You know numbers. You know rising or declining.

Speaker 4: 6:06

Many small communities across Virginia and elsewhere have population decline and people say, oh well, they're failing. Well, in many cases they're declining simply because there are older communities and deaths outnumber births. But that's only one thing driving population. You know we also had people moving in and moving out. I prefer that number because that's more people voting with their feet. And in the case of Danville, you have more people now moving into Danville on a net basis every year than you do in Roanoke. Yeah, a much bigger community. Well, to me that's just a sign of success. You know people are voting with their feet. They want to Well, to me that's just a sign of success. You know people are voting with their feet, they want to live in Danville and you've got that same thing happening other places. So you know, I would go back and you know, sort of look at it this way what if, say, the Tobacco Commission had never happened? You know, take away all of that money. You know where would things be? Well, they wouldn't be where they are today.

Speaker 3: 7:11

Right, I agree with that. Obviously I mean from my perspective. I think we made some mistakes but in the net looking at things, the investment was critical to bring back the two regions.

Speaker 4: 7:24

Yeah, I mean, you know no place is perfect. And you know, in my business, in journalism, you know we often spend a lot of time writing about the things that aren't perfect. But you know big picture. Imagine tobacco commissioning never happened.

Speaker 3: 7:38

You know all that investment in broadband you know, microsoft has invested over a billion dollars in South South Virginia, principally Mecklenburg County, because we made that investment early on, which was, in a lot of people's minds, very risky, that we were using $60 million. Oh, yes, I remember that and we proved them wrong. It's one of the most robust investments we ever made.

Speaker 4: 8:08

And I believe I'm correct in that the tax revenue from that has helped pay for a new school in Mecklenburg County.

Speaker 3: 8:14

Yes, that's right. The new high school and the Institute in Danville is another wonderful example of wise investment paying off.

Speaker 4: 8:26

And a lot of those things are things that are sometimes hard for the general public to see. You can't see broadband because it's in the ground, but you feel the effect of it. You don't always see the effect of scholarships or closing money for economic development deals, but take all that away and we'd be having a very different conversation.

Speaker 3: 8:52

I must say maybe I shouldn't say this, but in the early part of that investment of broadband being deployed in Southwest and Southside, some member of a local board of supervisors said well, all this is going to do is allow people to see porn quicker.

Speaker 4: 9:07

Well, okay, anyway, I mean, every technology that has been invented, you know, has had some downside to it. That's right, you know Good point.

Speaker 3: 9:19

Thank you, Good Mark Twain response there. Well, I didn't you know I wasn't.

Speaker 4: 9:24

You know, that was kind of Mark Twain.

Speaker 1: 9:27

We're going to segue eventually to politics, but before we do I want to make one last comment about the Cardinal News and I'm glad I met you, I'm glad I'm a subscriber. It has, in a lot of other news outlets the non-Cardinal News type. I see there's more of a cookie cutter approach to storytelling where they're going to use it in seven different newspapers or whatever else. And when I read a Cardinal thing sometimes I got to crack my knuckles and get comfortable because it's going to be a little bit more in depth. But it reminds me of what journalism used to be. It was rich, it was colorful, it made me feel like I could be part of the story. So is that part of your secret sauce too? Just your good old fashioned, back to basics journalism?

Speaker 4: 10:02

I think so. Yes, I mean, part of our intent when we started was to fill a void. We saw newspapers in this part of the state I mean really newspapers everywhere but in the part of the state we set out to cover, we saw them shrinking, doing less and less. So we set out to fill the void of what they weren't doing. Our first two reporters were a political reporter and a business reporter, because those were two big gaps we saw. What we hadn't counted on was that newspapers would keep shrinking Maybe we should have, but they did and more and more people coming to us to say, hey, you're our main news source, which is both flattering but also frightening, because you know I'm aware of all the news. You know that can't get covered. You know we, you know we'll soon have 10 reporters. You know we had 20, we could do twice as much, right, okay, right. But you know our goal was to fill that void of in-depth reporting. So that that speaks to your, your point there.

Speaker 1: 11:18

Good.

Speaker 3: 11:20

So, with this example being by all accounts very successful Deep, I'm just curious to other parts of the Commonwealth is there a move afoot to replicate Cardinal News, with its focus on Southwest and Southside, to have someone to do something in Hampton Roads and the Eastern Shore?

Speaker 4: 11:38

I mean, is that yes, first of all, sort of big picture. We are not unique. You know what we're doing is happening all over the country. As you see, newspapers decline. There is a corresponding increase in the growth of nonprofit news sites all over. So we have not, you know, invented something. We've, you know, done what others elsewhere are doing. In Virginia, yes, you are seeing the rise of other non-profit muse sites. There's one in fredericksburg, there's one in richmond, um, there may be others elsewhere, but that is where the growth area is, in the, in the virginia press association, which organized, of which we are a member, organizes its members for contest purposes by circulation. And then there's an online category. The online category is now the biggest category they have and not every online site in Virginia is a member. So that speaks to you know. That's where the growth is.

Speaker 1: 12:52

Carleton, do you want to get us started in politics Talking about where we go? Did you want to?

Speaker 3: 12:57

No, you go ahead. I had I did at some point, dwayne, I wanted to, if you're comfortable. I was going to put out some names of some political figures. Some have passed, some are still here. Just get a reaction. I suppose you can guess which ones are still here. I'm still thinking. That's why the Ouija board is here. Well, let's just bring up a dear friend, a dear friend of yours, who recently passed and you did a beautiful job with former delegate Barney Day passing away, a real, just a wonderful human being, a wonderful public servant, also a wonderful character in a positive way. I say that I just, if you want to comment about his passing and his legacy.

Speaker 4: 13:45

Sure, I mean. Let me start by just saying a few words about news obits in general. Yeah, at the newspaper I was at the Roanoke Times for 39 years and we were no different than anyplace else you know pre-written obits that could be used. Well, as time went on, you know those got used and there were fewer people to, you know, write new ones and one of the things that has happened with the you know decline of journalism has been fewer of those news obits. Because, yeah, there's some figures that you know you have to acknowledge. I mean you know you have to acknowledge, I mean you know the passing of the Pope recently, for instance, but there are lots of others that you know. I mean, everyday news organizations make choices about what they can and can't cover and you know, with fewer people there are more things they can. And one of the things that has gone by the wayside are news obits. News obits are hard. They're hard to do if you didn't know the person. And so, as a lot of people have left journalism, yeah, there are fewer people left. You know who knew the figures.

Speaker 4: 15:02

When I was a younger reporter I hated to have to write a news obit about somewhere I had no idea. You know who they were. At least I had some old clips could go by. But that, you know, by definition is incomplete. So that brings us back to Barney Day. I guess I'm at the age now where I know many of the people. You know that I'm writing news obits on and I'm not quite sure. You know I want to give them a good send-off but I'm sorry I have to give them a send-off. You know you've got a statewide audience. But you know, here in the Roanoke area in the past week the city's former economic development chief passed away, brian Wischneff, right, you know, who was a major figure in revival of downtown Roanoke. You know there really wasn't anybody else to write that. You know we did. But you know it does make me worry about. You know I don't know everybody and you know I worry about how some of these folks are going to be remembered, if they will be Right.

Speaker 1: 16:09

Right, that's a good point. Well, you know, I'll tell you. I read that one about Barney Day and you know what I thought when these folks are going to be remembered, if they will be Right. Right, that's a good point. Well, you know, I'll tell you, I read that one about Barney Day and you know what I thought when I got there reading it. I wish I'd have known the guy. Oh yeah, I mean, so that gets bad.

Speaker 1: 16:20

That's a good segue into you know sort of your bread and butter, which is politics, I think, or where you came out of. When I read the thing about Barney Day, I also lamented the fact of where are the Barney Days today. I mean, I kind of feel like that's why we used to have a system that functioned better, because we had colorful people, we had better representation. He was a Democrat in a rural area. When you had Democrats in rural areas, which you covered in the article, I thought that I read that article and I felt like I knew the guy, and then I lamented the fact that I didn't know him. Juxtapose that against the elections that are coming up.

Speaker 4: 16:53

Yeah, barney Day. For your listeners who aren't familiar with who he was, he was a fascinating character. He served two terms in the House of Democrats in the late 1990s, from Patrick County. He was a Democrat, as you say, in the era when there were still rural Democrats. He was a Democrat, as you say, in the era when there were still rural Democrats.

Speaker 4: 17:12

He was not your typical politician. He had started off in life as a journalist, ended up in Patrick County, ended up, you know, he was the county administrator for a while. He was on the board of supervisors, you know, sort of a Renaissance man in many ways. Elected to the House of Delegates. He was not your typical politician. I don't know what his campaign was like, but you know, I guarantee you, if he had a consultant he was the one telling the consultant what to do, rather than the other way around. You know he was an authentic figure for you know, for for better or for worse. Um, he was a marvelous writer. I mean, I first became acquainted with him when he was county administrator in Packer County. That's when I met him and he started writing opinion pieces in the run of times. And no offense to the government officials, but you know most government officials are not wordsmiths and you know some of them try very hard not to be interesting. You know if you're a county minister you usually want to keep your head down. You know he had a flair for lots of things. You know both in writing and you know the way he went about his work. Yeah, my favorite story that I heard and is in the news a bit was when he was county administrator.

Speaker 4: 18:40

There were two groups competing for a license, a certificate of public need to operate a nursing home in Patrick County, and there's one group that Patrick County, or at least Barney Day, favored over the other. So there's a state hearing in Richmond. Both sides are able to present witnesses. Well, the other side, you know they bring in some lawyers from a big law firm in Richmond to testify a very, very typical kind of thing. Herman Richman to testify, very, very typical kind of thing. Barney Day brings in a blind priest who was a resident in one of that company's nursing homes elsewhere, yeah, to testify about how good the care was. Yeah, the way it was described to me at that point there was no contest about who was going to win. You know two, yeah, two silk stocking lawyers from Richmond up against a blind priest.

Speaker 1: 19:36

Yeah, it's not a fair fight. Yeah.

Speaker 3: 19:38

I love that.

Speaker 1: 19:39

Well, don't you think so? How does that tie into what you think this year's election is going to be like? We're out of the chute already with some of the controversy and some of this nationalization. We just talked to Frank Atkinson about this. Everything is viewed through the lens of who your presidential candidate is. It's no longer viewed through a local or even a statewide level. It's all viewed through some shirts versus skins thing.

Speaker 4: 20:00

Yeah, there would not be a Barney Day today. You had a lot more ideological diversity in both parties in those days, but particularly on the Democrat side. I mean, barney was a. He called himself a conservative Democrat and to the best of my recollection, you know that was not some political phrase. He, you know, invented, you know, to suit his constituency. You know he was authentic. Yeah, he was a conservative Democrat. Yeah, you do not have that now. I mean, the Democratic Party today would never nominate a Barney Day. Yeah, but a Barney Day can never get nominated in the Republican Party either.

Speaker 1: 20:43

Right.

Speaker 4: 20:45

So, yeah, to segue this to the lieutenant governor primary, democratic primary for lieutenant governor coming up, six candidates all very different, but ideologically they're all kind of the same. You know they're, yeah, with the exception of how they feel about a casino in Fairfax County, which may be an issue there, but is not, you know, anywhere else. There's really not much difference. I mean, there's stylistic differences and you know differences of background, but it's not like you know some, you know ideological divide between one wing of the party and another.

Speaker 3: 21:29

Well, and let's speak to that.

Speaker 1: 21:30

The same thing that we said for the presumptive Republican, correct. I mean that he's different in some ways than candidates in the past, but in terms of his beliefs it's much more in liking with where we've come. Where people identify with presidential, they take the presidential jersey and they put it on, no matter what.

Speaker 4: 21:47

Yes, they take the presidential jersey and they put it on, no matter what. Yes, and if you look at the ads that are running in the Democratic primaries for lieutenant governor-in-chief in general, I don't know who's going to win, but I can tell you who's going to lose Donald Trump, because they're all running against Trump Exactly. I'll mention him. And you listen to John Reed, you hear a very opposite message. But those aren't state issues. That's not what the lieutenant governor does. Whether the lieutenant governor loves Trump or hates Trump, if you wanted to ask a real question about being lieutenant governor, you would quiz them on Jefferson's manual of order in, you know preside over the state Senate, or check the governor's pulse every morning?

Speaker 4: 22:32

Yeah, you go. With which hand will you bang the gavel? You know?

Speaker 3: 22:39

Well, that leads to a question I wish we had asked Frank this and Virginia, and with Brian's question, dwayne, and with Brian's question Dwayne is there an opportunity from your platform that a new political party could emerge in Virginia, like the Dominion Party, for example, is a name, because I think there's a lot of folks out there that are moderate to conservatives. John Dalton used to say Virginia's politics is like its weather moderate.

Speaker 4: 23:23

I mean, do you see some opportunity there for a void to be filled? There is a void it is very difficult to fill on a practical level, boy, it is very difficult to fill on a practical level. So I'm not predicting the resurgence of the Whig Party or any. You know the Federalists or any other party. Yes, there are a lot of people in the middle who feel left out by both parties. The latest Rungo College poll showed a lot of disenchantment with both parties. The problem is, you know moderates, you know there's a reason they're moderate. You know they are, you know, moderate in temperament and you know, until they go out and get organized, you know, and their dissatisfaction doesn't really mean very much. Well, the people going out and doing organizing on either side tend to be the more passionate people, you know, further left or further right.

Speaker 3: 24:27

And until you see that in the Commonwealth that you could see as a person that would have that gravitas to begin that process maybe.

Speaker 4: 24:39

None come immediately to mind. And you know, unfortunately, you know there are certain issues I'm thinking guns and abortion that are such a clear divide. Abortion that are such a clear divide yeah, as soon as someone commits, you know whatever their position is, you know they're either going to lean left or lean right and that makes it hard to, you know, put together a group in the center. If those two issues didn't exist, we might have a very different conversation. But those two issues and other types of social issues are really sort of the bright divagging line between people and they make it very difficult to come up with a third party in the center a third party in the center.

Speaker 1: 25:32

Well, once the Democrats get through with their nominating process and all the teams are set, do you think this will be just like all other gubernatorial elections, or do you see anything this year that makes this one say well, this one's a little different, and here's why.

Speaker 4: 25:46

Was it Tolstoy who had the quote about every family is unhappy in its own? You know, every same way. Yeah, there's some quote that I'm I'm mangling there. Um, to some extent it will be the same. To some extent it will be different. Um, let's talk about the differences first. Um, we start with trump.

Speaker 4: 26:08

You look back in virginia over the past 50 years, almost always Virginia has, you know, reacted yeah, has gone against the party in the White House. If there's a Democrat in the White House, we tend to elect a Republican. If there's a Republican, we tend to elect the Democrat. Trump excites more passion than most presidents, both pro and con. We know last time he was president, 2017, that was a very good year for Democrats. They saw a big turnout. You know.

Speaker 4: 26:40

The question is will that be replicated or have people just sort of become numb to that and things? You know. Be more normal Democrats are certainly hoping. You know, be more normal democrats are certainly hoping, you know they would like to replay 2017. So, again, you know, that's why you see all these democratic candidates for lg and ag. You know their whole campaign. Yeah, is not against the other people in the field, it's. You know, I will do the most to fight trump um, because they feel that's what Democratic partisans want to hear, and it may be. Whether independents want to hear that come the fall, that may be a different matter.

Speaker 1: 27:24

What do you think about turnout? Do you think the turnout will be a problem?

Speaker 4: 27:30

We begin with the reality that in a gubernatorial year about half the people vote. Last time I think the turnout was 54 percent and that was considered pretty good, yeah, by Virginia standards. So it depends on you know, whether you see that as a glass half full or half empty. Yeah, it sort of depends on, yeah, who are the people who turn out to vote Right. Yeah, glenn Youngkin won last time partly because he generated sort of superheated turnout in rural areas. Yep, yeah, in some counties you saw a 15 percentage point increase in turnout. Yeah, and those are mostly rural, highly Republican counties. Yeah, the numbers were small but they add up.

Speaker 4: 28:21

My favorite example is to compare Bedford County and Loudoun County. Loudoun County is about four times bigger than Bedford County. Terry McAuliffe won that. I forget the numbers offhand, I'm going to say 17,000 votes. Don't hold me to that, but in that neighborhood Bedford County a quarter of the size but very strongly Republican Youngkin took a margin out of Bedford of 23,000 votes. So Bedford County wiped out Loudoun County and you know Youngkin had some votes left over.

Speaker 1: 29:01

I'd heard, by the way, that was an intentional strategy. They went into it sort of saying you know, say, challenging these rural areas. Oh yeah. If you can simply help us turn out to greater degrees in Northern Virginia, we can do this. Yes, and it's still a fairly narrow I mean based upon some modern standards victory. So there is a pathway, but it's more of a narrow pathway.

Speaker 3: 29:19

Yes, and also I think part of that. The second part of that strategy was try to keep the Northern Virginia vote down. Yeah, press that some.

Speaker 4: 29:27

Yeah and Young can. Yeah, while yeah and Youngkin, while he didn't win Northern Virginia, he increased his percentage there and did a good job of cutting into those margins, cutting into that margin and maybe that debate performance by Terry McAuliffe at ASL was a tipping point.

Speaker 4: 29:47

It was. Yes, it was certainly not helpful to McAuliffe. It gave Youngkin some talking points, right, and you know, anytime you know there you had a former governor against a prospective governor. Well, you know, the former governor is always going to have more stature, you know Youngkin showed. You know he presented himself as gubernatorial and the other guy made a mistake, right that you know he tried to explain away. But you know it's sort of like when Hillary Clinton, you know, talked about we're going to put a lot of coal miners out of work, yeah, but the context of her remarks were very unremarkable. That was just a very poorly phrased quote that, you know, did not land well, Did not land well.

Speaker 3: 30:35

Well, back to the governor's race. There's clearly one significant difference. Obviously, one way or the other, the Commonwealth, in her long history, is going to have a chief executive that's a female, yes, and her long history is going to have a chief executive that's a female, yes. So if we could handicap both candidates, let's talk about the current lieutenant governor, the first African-American woman to be elected statewide in the Commonwealth, winsome Sears as a candidate to date. How do you see her breaking that trend Except, in fact, it was McAuliffe who beat Cuccinelli, that one year where that trend for half a century was broken.

Speaker 4: 31:20

Yeah, there was also a third party candidate that year who got back 6% of the vote Robert Sarvis, a libertarian. So you know we begin with the landscape being tilted toward Democrats this year simply because Republicans are the party in power, both in Richmond and in Washington, and parties in power tend to be a bit more complacent. Parties out of power are very eager to get back in. Anger motivates people a lot more than anything else, and if you're the party out of power, you're always mad at who's in power, and so that becomes a good rallying point.

Speaker 4: 32:04

Trump lost Virginia three times in a row. So the challenge for Republicans is yes, if people are really unhappy about Trump, yeah, how do you run? And yeah, republican partisans love Trump. So you need you know, earl Sears and the other Republican candidates. They need to motivate their people. But if independents don't, you know that becomes a challenge. What Republicans will try to do is to run as if you like Glenn Youngkin and Virginians tend to like Glenn Youngkin you'll like Earl Sears, run as a continuation of the Youngkin administration and not talk about what's happening in Washington. If you're a Democrat, you probably want to spend the whole campaign talking about Trump.

Speaker 1: 32:58

As you're already seeing the ads.

Speaker 4: 33:00

Yes.

Speaker 1: 33:00

Yes, and they're polling before they do those ads.

Speaker 4: 33:02

So they know, speaking to an audience that they know is receptive, yeah, so I'm not expecting a campaign that focuses a lot on the issues that the governor, the next governor, whoever she is will actually have to deal with.

Speaker 1: 33:17

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 33:17

Why, why?

Speaker 1: 33:20

Well, we talked earlier today about we both met each other through the George Allen campaign and people forget the importance of candidates, even though George was known as a policy guy and he had abolition of parole and he ran strong on policies. The lieutenant governor that year was Don Beyer. So in other words, even though George won about 17 points, the lieutenant governor went to the Democrat. There was a lot of ticket splitting. We just don't see as much of that anymore because people are shirts or skins right.

Speaker 1: 33:47

I mean we've definitely divided into two camps and you're always for your person, regardless of who the competition is.

Speaker 4: 33:54

Yeah, yeah, in theory there could be ticket splitting. You know, as you say, there's a lot less of that. You know if I'm not a betting person but if I had to go down to the casino in Bristol or Danville or anywhere else and you know lay money, you know I lay money. You know I will lay money. You know it will be a sweep for one party or another.

Speaker 3: 34:19

So your question. So in your view it's a possibility the incumbent attorney general could be part of a sweep.

Speaker 4: 34:28

That is the challenge for Meares, if things go the democratic way. Uh, I mean, I've had Democrats tell me you know, be honest, he's done a good job, you know he's, he's just got a Republican job, you know. So you know Democrats would like him out just because he's done Republican things. But you know, they've got no beef with his competence.

Speaker 1: 34:48

Yeah.

Speaker 4: 34:49

Um, you know. Just he's taking positions that they disagree with. The challenge for him is he's at the mercy of the top of the ticket, and the top of the ticket may be at the mercy of forces beyond her control.

Speaker 1: 35:07

Let me ask you a question, because when we first started, you'll be four years old this year, so you didn't exist in the last gubernatorial election.

Speaker 4: 35:15

We just launched.

Speaker 1: 35:16

You just launched. Did you all have a meeting and talk about? I mean, what's your strategy in terms of covering the governor's race this year? Were you covered primarily through the lens of Southside and Southwest?

Speaker 4: 35:26

Virginia. Yeah, generally speaking, we try to avoid the distractions of, you know, whatever the bright, shiny object of the day is and focus on issues. So, yeah, every day, you know both parties are trying to come up with something to you know, cover, cover this. Oh, cover, cover this. I mean just just about every other day. Yeah, democrats are having an event somewhere to talk about something that they think is advantageous to them, and you know, republicans do the same. Generally speaking, we are not so interested in those. I mean, just because they're having a news conference doesn't make it news for us. You know, we would rather do one good story on yeah here's where the candidates stand on economic development than you know five stories on yeah, who said what, about whom?

Speaker 3: 36:26

yeah do you see? Cardinal News does not endorse candidates. No, okay, so that's not going to happen.

Speaker 4: 36:33

No.

Speaker 3: 36:34

Okay, okay, no, that's a firm no.

Speaker 4: 36:38

We are trying to put together a debate we have for about the past few cycles now. There's always been a debate in southwest Virginia. We would like to make that a tradition. There's always been a debate in southwest Virginia. We would like to make that a tradition. Last time the debate was sponsored by the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy Right. We have partnered with them and also PBS Appalachia, to propose a gubernatorial debate to be held in Bristol at the PBS, the pbs appalachia studios there, which right there are quite nice, wonderful, um, we have not gotten a commitment from either side yet. So, if I can use this to um, you know, prog, prog, both of them. You know they're, you know the expectation is the candidates debate. We would like to create the expectation that there is always one in Southwest Virginia. That if, if they agree and it takes, you know, to tango, you know we will go and focus on the other issues on the side of the state.

Speaker 3: 37:47

Speaking of those two candidates and I hope they do, and I hope they listen to this podcast and they both accept your kind offer to debate in Bristol, virginia. What are the Keeley heels of, in your judgment of Abigail Spanberger and Winsome Sears? What are areas that you think could maybe trip them up and how their campaigns are being run, not so much an external nobody can control that but more Virginia Bay-centric.

Speaker 4: 38:20

Let's go over to Spanberger. She has not run statewide before, so she is known but not well-known. So you know that is a challenge Now. She has run some very competitive campaigns in the seventh district so she would be battle tested in in that regard. She is probably she is trying to position herself closer to the center than most of her party. Take Right to Work, for instance.

Speaker 4: 38:56

All six candidates for Democrat nomination from Louisiana governor want to repeal Right to Work. Spanberger said well, I'm in favor of a full repeal. Well, we don't really know what a partial repeal would be, but at least stylistically. You know she is not where the others are. That could pose a problem a couple ways. You know one she may not excite her party's progressive activist base as much as she needs to progressive activist base as much as she needs to. She is also, then, vulnerable to. Well, it doesn't matter how close she's positioned herself to the center, people's impression of the Democratic Party is moving further and further to the left and that may not be helpful in some regard. So she may get tagged with that, whether she, you know, embraces those sorts of things or not. Um, yeah, any candidate can make a mistake. So that you know that that's true for for both of them, um, for Earl Sears, um, uh, she is not always a very comfortable campaigner or speaker. You know we are not seeing as much of her out on the trail as Spanberger. She seems to be more sort of under wraps, and you know we. She also has a somewhat combative personality which may excite partisans but again, may not, you know, excite the general public.

Speaker 4: 40:41

I'm thinking of the exchange she got into at the Buena Vista, you know, labor Day event last year. I forget the exchange, but there were some hecklers and you know she was giving as good as she got. And you know, you know Republicans are certainly excited about that. But you know, was that necessarily the best? Look, you know we, we will see. So you know that would be the danger there. For whatever reason, there is some softness in the support for her among Republicans. Whether that is because she at one point tried to distance herself from Trump or some other reason, don't know. And I wonder Go ahead. I'm sorry, dwayne, go ahead. You know we don't know, but you know she's got to deal with that.

Speaker 3: 41:27

Right, yeah, not a, not the best deck to be handed. And I wonder, if she hadn't done that, if she had stuck to her, what probably is her real thought about the president? How she would have.

Speaker 1: 41:40

Well, we'll never know how that would have been that are unique to here, and I'll give you two ones that come to mind immediately. For me was one just what you said economic development. This is still an area that doesn't prosper the way that the Golden Triangle prospers. The second thing is the things you can't predict, like the flooding that occurred more recently, where I think Governor Young has done a really admirable job of remaining committed to helping those communities recover. What do you see going forward? Do you think economic development is always sort of front and center? And then are there a couple of other things in addition to that.

Speaker 4: 42:15

Economic development is always going to be a big issue in southwest and south side. I would call attention to solar energy. We are seeing a boom in solar energy development across Southside Virginia and that has not always been popular with all of the people there.

Speaker 1: 42:41

Is that related to the data?

Speaker 4: 42:42

centers too correct. It's related to a bunch of things Going back to the Clean Economy Act mandates a carbon-free electric grid by a certain date. That has set in motion a wave of renewable energy development, primarily solar and primarily in Southside. At the same time, you do have this huge growth of data centers in Northern Virginia. That is driving up electric demand. So it's yeah, there would have been the solar boom anyway. It is, you know, much higher because of the the, because of the growth of data centers.

Speaker 4: 43:27

Solar is very controversial in rural Virginia. I find it fascinating because it splits both wings. You know, some things are predictably left and right. Solar has got there plenty of people on the right who, you know it's a property rights issue, right. Well, you know this is my land. If I want to lease it to solar company, you know that's, that's my right. Um, others are like man, this is really, you know it's ugly. It's turning our, you know, beautiful rural landscape into an industrial blight. Um, that tends to be, you know, the side we hear from most.

Speaker 4: 44:08

Um, we are seeing an increasing number of rural localities turn down solar for lots of reasons. That has caused concern, particularly among Democrats. Yeah, how are we going to hit these renewable energy goals. Yeah, right now Virginia gets 7% of its power from solar energy, and we see how controversial it is. How are we going to take that figure even higher? Right now, virginia gets 7% of its power from solar energy, and we see how controversial it is. How are we going to take that figure even higher? So you know, there's talk of basically the state taking over solar siding, but particularly in rural areas, who are feeling that they are being asked to shoulder the burden of producing energy for these data centers in northern Virginia that they don't benefit from.

Speaker 3: 45:02

Well, to piggyback on Brian's question, dwayne Governor Youngkin early on championed especially, I guess, southwest Virginia as being a location for nuclear, these small nuclear modules. Is that stalled or is that going anywhere? I haven't.

Speaker 4: 45:24

That's a good question. I don't know. I can fill you in what we're talking about. There's a new species of nuclear reactor called small modular reactors. We've had small reactors for a long time on nuclear submarines. What is new is using those for commercial purposes to generate electricity for the grid. The theory is, the problem with nuclear is it's very expensive to develop and takes a long time. The theory is, with these small reactors you can build them more quickly and through economies of scale they can be cheaper and quicker.

Speaker 4: 46:08

The governor had proposed going in Southwest Virginia. Many local leaders liked that idea for economic development purposes, but there were lots of people on the ground who you know they wanted nothing to do with solar. It's not up to the governor, though, to decide where you know nuclear reactors or any other energy production goes. That's really up to the utilities that own them. We now have two proposed in Virginia, one by Dominion, one by Appalachian. Dominion has proposed one at its current North Anna nuclear station. That would be in. It's a deal with Amazon. The power would go to Amazon for their I guess, amazon Web Services. Vega's produced no controversial, I mean. You know there are already two big reactors there, you know, adding a third, smaller one, you know you know, that is not, you know, causing any problem.

Speaker 4: 47:13

You know that is not causing any problem. Appalachian has proposed one at its Joshua Falls substation outside Lynchburg in Campbell County. So far that has not produced any controversy either. Yeah, there are already two big nuclear companies in the Lynchburg area, bwx and Framaton. So that area is very aware of nuclear and yeah, we'll see how that proposal plays out. But you know, frankly, there's probably more nuclear material already there than would be in this reactor. When there was a public hearing but an initial public meeting to talk about this thing and Cardinal covered it, the main complaint we heard from people was well, what's going to happen with the boat ramp on the James River? Is that going to be closed or not? There was not really, you know, concern about splitting atoms.

Speaker 4: 48:07

It was whether there's still going to have the boat access. So those may be the two perfect places for a nuclear proposal in terms of minimizing, you know, public opposition. You know if you put one in your backyard you might object, but you know, putting one in an existing nuclear station, you know people may not notice. We still don't know how long it will take for those to get approved. President Trump wants to speed up that process in terms of permitting, but you know, no one has actually built one in this country yet. So you know, even if you know the permit were available today, you know there's still just the practical standpoint of you know you got to build the thing. So we don't know how many years off that will be.

Speaker 4: 49:04

The interesting thing is that we are now seeing a lot of Democrats come around to nuclear power. Yeah, republicans have always been for nuclear power. Democrats have generally been against for environmental reasons. Now there is a segment of the Democratic Party that is coming around to. Well, you know, if we're going to really come up with a carbon-free electric grid, we may need nuclear power, you know, for base load purposes, because it runs 24-7. And that may be the only way to generate, you know, lots of power. You know, without paving over the whole scale I mean I'm exaggerating, but you know you get the point you can generate a lot more power in a smaller place with a nuclear reactor. So you know, when Biden was president he was very pro-nuclear. You know Spanberger has been very open to nuclear. You know the Senate Majority Leader, scott Sorvel, very open to nuclear. Yeah, I'm sure there are Democrats out there who aren't. But you know the point is, yeah, there is a consensus that well, you know that may be you know, the way to go.

Speaker 4: 50:21

So the real question is how long is it going to take to build these things?

Speaker 1: 50:26

Yeah, and the permitting.

Speaker 4: 50:27

And the permitting which, you know, Trump wants to speed up, and may well.

Speaker 1: 50:33

We need to wrap up, Carthen. Do you have a final question?

Speaker 3: 50:36

I would like to ask from your perch we've talked about the statewide races how do you see the House of Delegates going this year? It's a very slim majority of the Democrats currently hold 51-49.

Speaker 4: 50:51

They're probably only about a half dozen seats that are truly competitive. All 100 will be up, but there are only about half a dozen. They'll be where the action is, maybe a dozen at most, but we can sit here and make a list. The challenge for the Republicans is about eight Republican seats are in districts that Kamala Harris carried. So if you're a Democrat, you want those presidential year voters to come out in a gubernatorial year and vote your way for the reasons we've talked about. You know, come, yeah, come. Vote the Democratic side. Yeah, if you're one of those Republican incumbents, uh, yeah, against that sort of backdrop, yeah, you probably want to talk about what you have done and, yeah, not not get caught up in the national picture.

Speaker 3: 51:54

Have you seen any polling data on those eight races?

Speaker 4: 51:57

I have not, I have not. I've seen you know generic statewide numbers, but I don't you know, since that's not how we elect members of the House of Delegates, right right. Yeah, a statewide number doesn't mean anything to me, you know, tell me how House District 41 is leaning, and then yeah, that means something.

Speaker 3: 52:15

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 52:17

Well, my final question. We began with the journalism and the great story of Cardinal News. As we face, the country looks at its 250th birthday. Are you pro-journalism, con-journalism? Where do you think you guys have turned the corner and you're making them. We can't have a democracy without a free and effective press. Do you think that the dark days are behind you and we're on to something new for our big 250th?

Speaker 4: 52:40

I'm pretty optimistic, and I wasn't when we started. I mean, that was one of the reasons we started. Yeah, with all due respect to my folks in the print business, newspapers are going to continue to decline for the same reason that vinyl records and 8-track tapes have declined. People have not lost their interest in music, they've simply changed their. You know the pattern by which they wish to consume it, and they wish to consume it through streaming services.

Speaker 4: 53:11

Same with news. People have not lost their interest in news, they've just changed how they want to consume it through streaming services. Same with news. People have not lost their interest in news, they've just changed how they want to consume it. They don't want a dead tree delivered to their doorstep every morning. They want to be able to get it on their phone right now. And, as we talked about, across the country, we're seeing the rise of generally nonprofit news sites such as ours. You know we are not back to the point of, you know, replacing the number of people we had. I mean, people always ask me how come you're not covering this or that? Well, because you know, yeah, yeah, at one time there were like 40, some journalists covering the Virginia General Assembly. Now they're probably, you know, at best maybe a dozen. Jeff Shapiro's retirement.

Speaker 4: 53:57

Yeah so you know you do less with less. Yeah, but I do feel we've turned a corner, so I'm cautiously optimistic.

Speaker 3: 54:10

How many reporters do you have covering the General Assembly? I assume more than one.

Speaker 4: 54:15

We have one reporter in Richmond year-round, okay, and then when the General Assembly is in session at some point, probably everybody in our staff is involved. Now, that doesn't mean they're necessarily there in Richmond, but yeah, our business reporter is covering business issues, our technology reporter is covering technology issues. Our health care reporter is covering health care issues.

Speaker 3: 54:47

So yeah, that is a big deal to us. So, real quick, I don't think so. But have you thought about, does Cardinal?

Speaker 4: 54:58

News at some point have an editorial page, to use that term. We run very few op-eds. Part of that is intentional. We want op-eds are easy, you know they're free and you know lots of people out there, you know, will give you their opinion on something. We want to be known as a news site, not an opinion site. The internet is full of opinion. We do not. The world does not lack for opinion. Yeah, it lacks, for you know actual immunity. You know Objective reporting. You know fact-based reporting. So we do run a few op-eds, but very few. You know people often ask us, you know, will you have the letters to the editor's page? You know I hope not. You know I managed going at the wrong times. That was very hard to manage and you know what I tell them. You know one. You know that takes people. Two, you know we are not a newspaper online. We were trying to create a new creature. Again, I won't say no, but it's a matter of proportion. We want to make sure our emphasis is on news.

Speaker 1: 56:12

Gotcha. Well, anything else you want to say before we wrap up?

Speaker 4: 56:16

We're at cardinalmuseorg. We now have six newsletters that people can sign up for. We also have our own podcast.

Speaker 1: 56:24

I noticed that, yeah, you came here and got our idea. Can we be on the podcast?

Speaker 3: 56:31

Reciprocity.

Speaker 4: 56:32

It's a very incestuous world, exactly. Uh, you know, we actually have two podcasts. We have our weekly news podcast, where one of our reporters is on every week. And then you talked about the 250th. Uh, we have a? Um, we've embarked on a multi-year effort around the impending 250th anniversary of the Declaration of Independence. It will probably go beyond that. Every month, we are telling the stories of little known aspects of Virginia's role, in that we think of the revolution as a bunch of old white guys in white wigs and that was certainly true, but there were lots of other people involved too. And so we have a monthly 250 newsletter and a monthly 250 podcast.

Speaker 1: 57:23

Terrific.

Speaker 4: 57:24

Thomas Jefferson hasn't been on it yet. He's been dodging us.

Speaker 1: 57:28

Well, thank you for everything you're doing. I think you're part of the reason that journalism is making a comeback. Don't stop what you're doing. Thank you for listening to us today. If you like what you've heard today on the Virginians of Interest podcast, please like, subscribe and download. Have a good day.

Speaker 2: 57:42

Thank you for listening to the Virginians of Interest podcast. To hear other episodes of this podcast, head to virginiansofinterestcom.