And now from the Blue Ridge PBS studios in Roanoke, virginia. It's the Virginians of Interest podcast, with your hosts Brian Campbell and Carthan Curran.

Welcome to the Virginians of Interest podcast. My name is Brian Campbell. I'm here today with my friend, carthan Curran, who wants to introduce our special guest today.

Thank you, brian Frank. It's wonderful to see you and thank you so much for being on Virginia's Adventurous and for me it's truly a personal delight to have you a friend for close to half a century. That's hard to say, but thank you, you're acknowledging your age Carson. Well, we're open here to all kinds of information. Frank, for our viewers, can you give us a little history about where you grew up and your background, and then we'll get into your current project, your current book that you're, I guess, close to finishing?

Oh no, it's a work in progress.

Work in progress. But a little bit about your background and then we'll get into some more.

Sure. I was born on the eastern shore of Virginia and spent my life here, went to the University of Richmond, undergrad in UVA Law School. I've spent my life here, went to the University of Richmond, undergrad in UVA Law School, and I'm an attorney and consultant at McGuire Woods Law Firm McGuire Woods Consulting, the latter being a subsidiary that I helped found in 1998. And I've had a couple of stints of public service, junior positions in federal Jamestown 400th Commission, which was a particular joy, and then I've had the opportunity to do some writing, which began in college and has become, or has been, a real joy throughout my life. I take a long time to do a book, though, so I'm not terribly prolific.

Before we get started, because for you to get together, you've known each other 50 years. We've known each other less formally in the last few years. Why the Eastern Shore? Why were you born on the Eastern Shore? I presume this would have happened when your mother had to be.

That's where we lived. My father was a school principal over in Northampton County, northampton High School, gotcha, and so we were only over there a few years but have visited many times and very fond of the place and people over there. But I grew up primarily in Caroline County home of Secretariat, by the way and then have been in Richmond, hanover, henrico area, except for those couple of stints up to Washington serving the Reagan administration.

And all that was related to your dad's service in K-12 public education. Where you moved around was your dad would have a job.

Yeah, he was principal in Northampton, then superintendent of schools in Amelia and Caroline and then sort of semi-retired to Isle of Wight County. So moved around as school administrators tend to do, but always pretty much a product of central-ish Virginia.

When you were growing up, frank? When did the political public service bug hit you?

When did the political public service bug hit you? You know I have no idea, brian Cartham. To be honest, yesterday was Patrick Henry's birthday and the first political thing I can recall I don't recall, but I was told about which is my father brought me in he also taught government, brought me into his class to recite Patrick Henry's speech at age four, something that I inflicted on my own kids as well. But you know, I don't know the first involvement I had. You know, I was a weird kid who was interested in politics at a very early age and I remember working in the 1968 campaign as a young activist for a congressional candidate and President Nixon candidate, then in 1968 at age 11, and then had the opportunity to be a page in the General Assembly and later a legislative aide in the General Assembly. So those experiences certainly continued to build my interest. And then, as you know, I've worked on various campaigns and mainline policy roles, with some gubernatorial campaigns Right Well.

I know the page bug.

So you were a page, but you all weren't pages together.

I'm a little younger than or my good friend, but that was certainly a life changing experience for me as well.

You know, when you went to college at Richmond and before going to law school at Virginia, and your first I mean you worked in the Reagan administration. What did you do in the Reagan administration?

again, I went. I was there twice. In the first term I was a special assistant to Jay Wilkinson, now federal judge, a fourth circuit judge Jay Wilkinson in the civil rights, fourth Circuit Judge, jay Wilkinson in the Civil Rights Division. And then I went back during the second term and was a special counsel and deputy chief of staff to Ed Meese as attorney general. So I was up there for a couple of different stints.

Well, Clothin, I know you're consequentially from the Allen administration. How did you come to know George Allen Through those Washington connections?

No, not through Washington. I'm not sure when I first met Governor Allen, but I certainly got to know him well when I was in law school and he was there as a lawyer in Albemarle County and running for office in whatever year. That was I guess 81. And then I think he won in 83. So he went through political he was actually Ronald Reagan's youth chair in 1976. And so I think I ran across the Meadow Republican Convention there and got to know certainly got to know him in Charlotte.

Well, it was a very symbiotic and successful relationship. I think so.

Well, it was a great privilege to serve in his administration and I think he really go down has gone down in the estimation of a lot of observers across the political spectrum. There was a really consequential governor who accomplished a lot and it was many relationships of long-lasting with people who served within the Allen administration. They got to know you then and it was just a great, great experience.

Well, I'm going to ask one question before I turn it over to Carth and we'll get into your book. But you know I didn't. I didn't interact with you that way. We talked yesterday to prepare for this and one of the things that I, that I complimented you on was and I think, governor, governor Allen too, was you know, politics we think today is.

We look back on and say, oh, it was so much nicer back then. Well, it was rough and tumble back then too. It hasn't changed that much, but I do feel there was a big focus he had on policy. I mean, he just knew there were certain things where there was parole abolition, the reform of welfare, economic development, all this sort of bedrock point, and you were the captain of that particular ship. How does policy differ from politics? I've often wondered about that, because you know you win the election, you get to govern, but then somebody has got to put all this together and you can't tease politics out of that, even though at the end of the day, it has to hopefully, in your case, get passed by the legislature and ultimately it has to hopefully, in your case, get passed by the legislature and ultimately, you know, promulgated and so forth. So how did your previous experience prepare you for that, and what was that experience like as a relatively young man?

Sure Well, previous experience really, I think, working in gubernatorial campaigns on the policy side, and while I didn't have that role during the Allen administration, I was working at the law firm at the time. I did help in terms of helping officially. But you make a really great point and it's one of the things that we can elaborate on when we talk about sort of the last 20, 30 years of politics in Virginia that I'm focusing on in this book that I'm currently writing the emphasis in the competitive era, which I date back pretty much to the late 60s, the breakthrough election that made gubernatorial races truly competitive, with Lennon-Holton's first Republican win in almost a century in the governor's race that was 69. From 69, certainly through the 90s and, I would think, in the early period after the turn of the century, you can pretty much say that most governor's races in Virginia were decided by a very fruitful, I think, and beneficial competition of ideas. In other words, you had the Republicans, you had the Democrats. The situation had pretty much sorted so that the parties were lined up like they were nationally and the two parties then competed for a substantial block of unaligned voters. Those voters might lean R or lean D, but they were up for grabs and they were disproportionately at that time located in the suburban areas of the state. But significant blacks or rural voters were up for grabs as well, and the main way that the candidates on both sides competed was their policy ideas.

Now, allen was a particularly policy-oriented figure. He had served in the House of Delegates, had had a number of initiatives then. He's a student of public policy. He had always run his legislative campaigns on issues, and when he ran for governor in 1993, and you ticked off several of them, you know it was about ideas. It was a commitment to reform the very lenient parole system that we had abolish parole and substitute truth in sentencing. It was a proposal to have combined investment in education with standards and reform to really move the bar on student achievement in K-12 education, student achievement in K-12 education. It was a commitment to reform welfare and ultimately Virginia was the first comprehensive welfare program adopted by a state in the country. And then he was always all about economic development and so a set of major accomplishments during that administration around creation of the Virginia Economic Development Partnership and Enterprise Zone, expansion of various other initiatives.

So when he came into office, I mean when he had run the first time as a candidate for delegate. His theme was he keeps his promises. So promise keeping as sort of an ethic political ethic was very much what he was about and sort of. I was, as I say, a great privilege to be a part of that. I was about that as well. You know I'm really interested in the policy side.

The challenge was how do you take that kind of very vigorous, creative and significant set of changes of public policy and get them passed to a legislate as a Republican governor through a legislature that is predominantly at that time was controlled in both houses by Democrats. And you know the short answer is you work it hard and you do a lot of things. On parole abolition and welfare reform, he had a strong mandate and he pretty much sort of said we're going to, you know, go at this, and if you all don't support me on this, you're really crossing the people who sent me here. And so there were not many compromises at all on the welfare and parole plan. On the other hand, on education, to get the education standards initiative through even the wide range of views on education, ranging from the progressive education establishment on the one hand to the conservative reformer on the other end. It took a lot, it looked a lot of work and he very wisely tapped Bill Bosher, a local, very well-regarded local school superintendent here in the central Virginia area, and also Secretary Bev Scroo. But it was a very inclusive process. There was a lot of give and take. The program really has succeeded, and succeeded at least for a couple of decades in moving us to the forefront nationally in educational performance because it had the support of both parties. It was supported by Governors Warner and Kane, in addition to Governors Gilmart and McConnell During the implementation period had a succession of Board of Education chairs, republican and Democratic appointees who were absolutely indispensable to the success of it.

So I guess my point is number one, he ran on those issues. Number two, he was committed to accomplish them. And then, number three, I think there was versatility in the repertoire of tactics to get it done. Some you could take it sort of a hard line and say we've got a mandate. Others you had to recognize that there were substantial interests that had to be harmonized. There were substantial interests that had to be harmonized but even on the ones like parole, the governor had co-chief patrons, had Democrats as well as Republicans patroning those bills in the House and the Senate and that sort of bipartisan approach continued.

That was not the time when it was all combined. I mean, he was. He had the ability to sort of take the case publicly and really a leader and mobilizer of public opinion with a really well thought out legislative program and plan. And you know, I do think there's a certain seriousness about legislating. That has been the hallmark in Virginia and one of the things that's been a key to our success.

You don't know, I heard speaker, former speaker Todd Gilbert say it a group one time. You don't just pass big ideas. You may. You know we're not. We do serious, detailed legislation. So though he ran on big ideas, but then we did the hard work necessary to pass serious and, I think, transformational legislation. And you know you talk about policies. The last thing I'll say on that is that that reform agenda was the key. There were a lot of other factors, including his personal skill as a candidate, but people forget that George Allen started that race 21 points behind in the polls and won by 17 points and change close to 18 points, one of the biggest turnarounds ever and still tied with Bob McDonald's margin for the largest landslide in a modern competitive race. So I think the change agenda honest change, as he dubbed it was a crucial part of that. Just touching base.

Going back to the, as he dubbed it, was a crucial part of that, Arthur Well, just touching base, going back to the 93 race, because, as you pointed out, Mary C Terry, the Democratic nominee was way ahead. The Democrats had held the governor's mansion for 12 years and so maybe there's a new call for divided government does work, and I know that might be something you want to touch on with your pending book On your past books, the emergence of the Republican, modern Republican Party. I'm going to throw some names at you and I'll be interested in getting your response to these political figures. Many of them have passed on so they can't repeat what you might say, At least I don't think they can. So I'm going to throw a couple of names at you. Frank, Consequential figures, especially in the growth of the Republican Party in the 20th century. I'll start with Mills Godwin.

Well, as you know, and I suspect your viewers many of your viewers who follow Virginia politics know he's a bit of a unicorn and if he's the only person to be twice elected by vote of the people to as governor, having served two non-consecutive terms, first 66 to 1970 and then 74 to 78. And, more interestingly perhaps, the first term he served as a Democrat, the second term he served as a Republican. He was a very consequential governor in his first term in terms of investments in education, particularly in terms of investments in education, particularly and I won't go down the whole list, but he had a very fruitful governorship and, I think, especially in terms of both the adoption of sales tax as a funding mechanism and creation of the community college system, investments in K-12. What he did was he passed his program with bipartisan support and that really commenced a period that is still going on, I think, of bipartisan investments in education and talent, with a particular focus on economic development, and we moved from a state that was really not in the front of the pack, from either an economic growth standpoint or talent development standpoint, in the 1960s to a position where now I think you can say that it's really a that we are arguably the top state for talent and win those kinds of accolades fairly regularly, and so he is certainly a pivotal figure in policy and particularly education, and quite a transformation when you think about it, because he was also the floor leader for the massive resistance program during the segregation era. So it's remarkable.

His metamorphosis, his migration, if you will, to being a key education governor was a very significant story in its own right. And then you add to that the fact that he was very much of a transitional figure in terms of the two-party realignment. His own personal transition to run as a second time as a Republican really reflected the change that was going on in the 1970s, as Virginia, which had had sort of a typically Southern conservative Democratic Party and a more moderate Republican Party, gradually transitioned to sort of two centrist parties, one right of center in terms of the Republicans, one left of center in terms of the Democrats, but very much both competitive, as I mentioned earlier, for the sort of middle voters. So Governor Gavin is just a truly significant and I've barely touched the surface of his significance but truly significant figure in terms of the modern competitive era which, again, I you know the interesting thing is his successor.

I'm guessing who your next name might be, but Nelman Holton, as his successor really was was, was the two of them and they weren't, particularly they weren't allies in any practical sense. They had been rivals. Holton had run against God, and in 1965. But you know, together, I would say, and not necessarily always by design, sometimes by the force of competition, Republican Party, that was the sort of Holton Mountain and Valley traditional, more moderate Republicans and the sort of bird Democrats and the and sort of the moderate business community that back Godwin came together and that was a winning coalition for Republicans throughout the seventies. Then go into the eighties and you get a democratic winning streak occasion by Governor Rob and Governor Wilder. So, um, but anyway, yeah, he's definitely the pivotal figure at the beginning of what I call the modern competitive era.

And then I guess Governor Dalton would kind of an interesting mix between Godwin and Holton, because obviously Governor Dalton's father, who had run for governor in the 50s, judge Ted Dalton, came out of that Mountain Valley Republican area. Any comments? I know you were pretty close to John Dalton, yeah, I think you know both.

The Ted and John Dalton story is sort of the first family of Virginia Republicanism, if you will, from the 50s on. I mean Ted Dalton ran twice for governor in the 50s, particularly his 1953 race was a very strong run and I got to interview Judge Dalton. He then went on to become a federal judge. I got to interview him for my first book, the Dynamic Dominion, and it's just a charming person.

You could immediately see why he was so successful in politics and he nearly achieved a breakthrough for Republicans back in the 50s you know, 16 years before it actually occurred at the knee of Ted and went to Republican conventions and was just a very strong party leader, very committed to the Republican Party.

But as you point out, he sort of grew out of that Mountain and Valley tradition and then was Mills-Gobbins running mate in 1973, dalton running for lieutenant governor, and he very thoroughly embraced the Mills Govans, dick Oben Shane strategy of sort of forging a coalition, if you will, of conservatives, sort of center right coalition in Virginia and had a very productive governorship in which he reduced the size of the state workforce when sort of the combined efforts of Holton, godwin, dalton, those three successive governors, dick Omen Shane as party chairman was really sort of a Republican heyday. Then you had the Democratic heyday in the 80s and then you come back with George Allen and Jim Gilmore in the 90s and then Democrats again with Mark Warner and Tim Kaine after turning a century. So quite a rollercoaster ride we've had of the two parties.

Well, frank, real quick, and then I'll let Brian ask a question. But back to Governor Dalton. I mean, and tragically he contracted lung cancer and passed away way too early. Was there ever any consideration that you know of that? He because, when Chuck Robb broke the 12-year run of the Republican Party having the governor's mansion, was he maybe thinking about coming back to a second run if he had not gotten sick?

Yes, I think it's fair to say. You know, I never he was a partner here. He came here after he was governor here being McGuire Woods, and I was a young associate at the time and I got to work some with them, spend some time with them and he never told me that he was considering running again. But, um, very reliably from other people I think he was thinking about and probably wouldn't run in 85 if he hadn't had a recurrence of his, of his cancer and then he passed away and I think september of 86. So, um, that's one of. You know several sort of tragedies, if you will, that have changed. You know early deaths of political leaders that have really changed the course of Virginia politics.

Well, we would of course, add Sarge Reynolds and Dick Ebenchain would be the two that stand out in that respect, and we can touch on that a little bit later. I'm going to give Brian the chance to ask a question.

Tell us a little bit. So you've got this new book you're working on, but how many books have you written historically? I've got the Dynamic Dominion, and I mean, tell us also what most lawyers I know feel like they're frustrated writers, it seems like so. Is that your case too? You've always felt that you had this, you had something you wanted to say, and you've had these series of books covering Virginia politics. And tell us a little bit about your current book.

Well, hopefully they don't read like lawyers writing there's a time and place for that and history writing history is probably not the place for it, but there are some really good lawyers who are some very good writers, who had legal training. My books are principally the Dynamic Dominion, which covers sort of the emergence of two-party competition, picks up at the end of World War II and runs up through 1980 in the Reagan election. Then Virginia in the Vanguard, which runs from 1980 for the next 25 years up to early 2006. And this next one will sort of pick up the story there and will bring it current. But it's also looking at the whole span of this competitive era. And in particular, as we are at the 250th anniversary, my interest is in writing a book about the Virginia as an example of the founders' vision of divided government actually working, producing the kind of collaboration and compromise, spirited competition. But at the end of the day the American system was designed with checks and balances, not to have gridlock and overreach like we tend to have at the federal level, but to sort of force collaboration because neither party can. It's very difficult for a single party to control everything. So I think Virginia stands out as first one of the most of divided government top four or five states for the amount of divided government over the whole period. And since the turn of the century no state has had more divided government than Virginia has.

And you know, some folks, a lot of commentators will say, depending on who's up and who's dying, at whatever period during the Republican heyday in the 70s and 90s, you would hear, oh, it's a red state. During the Democratic heyday of the 80s, and Mark Warner, tim Kaine, on up through the first decade after the turn of the century, oh, it's blue. And everybody was talking about how blue it was right up to the time Glenn Youngkin got elected and we just had a showdown for control of the General Assembly. After the Supreme Court, you know, under the new constitutional provision redistricted the entire state House and Senate and we had that election and it came down to 51-49 and 21-19. So couldn't have other than a tie in both houses, which incidentally we had back in the 1990s. You couldn't have it much closer. So it's a very competitive environment and a lot of the policy changes and things that have been accomplished, I think are the product of that divided government working.

So to me Virginia is, and I don't portray it as Nirvana or you know. There are plenty of things that need to, can be improved, should be improved. Lots of needs, should be improved, lots of needs. But if you're looking to answer the question, can the system work as designed by the founders? Checks and balances and divided government, can it work? I would argue that Virginia stands out as proof. It can work largely as design, and so this book will sort of tell that story and then try to extract from that story Some useful lessons that may help us in this fraught moment.

Uh, at the national level, where we've seemed so polarized and unable to compromise to get things done, and where one party or the other, on the basis of very thin majorities, has, you know, adopts public policy, strong public policy, purely on partisan votes, only to have the next party that comes along, you know, going a different direction We've had, despite very spirited competition and being one of the most diverse states in the country, we have had more collaboration than people realize.

Virginia is very much experiencing what other states are, which is sort of a nationalization of presidential obsession, as I call it in the book, where it's all about president. It's so ironic that on the 250th, as we approach the 250th anniversary? The one thing? The founders they had many opinions on many things, but if you had said it's one thing, they would agree on no-transcript. So I'm venturing from your question, but yet the book is about that divided government story. I should also mention I did a novel and it's about the same topic really which is how to sort of renew American democracy. It's called the Lion's Den A Story of American Renewal set in a fictional Virginia, and that was published in 2020.

Well, my last question before I turn it over to Karth and for the next question is do you have a name for this little last book, the one you're currently working on? Stay tuned, stay tuned.

I do have a name in mind, but nothing is done. Until it's done, I can pretty much tell you the subtitle, which will be Rediscovering the Genius of Divided Government as America Turns 250. The genius of divided government as America turns 250. Because that's the, but I'm playing with some titles, so stay tuned.

Well, let's put an exclamation point behind that subtitle Carth.

I look forward to having a signed copy, frank, as I have for you the other books. But we're going to have Cheryl Wilson actually at 1 o'clock on this program. Oh great, yeah. Who's, of course, in charge of the 250 celebration in the Commonwealth? Let me go back to a list of ghosts of the past John Warner.

Well, john Warner is, you know, a very historic figure as well the longest serving senator in Virginia. History, with one exception, which is Harry F Byrd Sr. Served 30 years and chaired the Armed Services Committee as well as the Rules Committee in the Senate. Really had a significant impact on modernization of the American military and in Virginia, as you know, he had a very close race. His first race he won very narrowly and he had a scare when Mark Warner no relation future governor ran against him in 1996. But otherwise he coasted to election either with no opposition or no consequential opposition and really was a product of that emergence of that conservative coalition and made his own contribution to it over his career.

Thank you, henry Howell.

Well, henry Howell, you know, was a galvanizing figure both within the Democratic Party. He produced some vigorous competition in 1969 and 1977. In 1973, he ran as an independent against Mills Goblin and nearly won. He had the Democratic endorsement but the Democrats didn't field an actual nominee. Very much a populist, remarkable figure really, in that Virginia has not tended to have the colorful populist figure that you've had in the South and Howell's coalition was so fascinating he brought together. He was sort of anti-business and anti-government and anti-establishment business and anti-government and anti-establishment. And so when you look at his votes he managed to perform well in precincts that have been carried by Harry Bird and George Wallace and so at running as an independent there was a lot of conservative support and yet he was really the champion and beloved figure among labor voters, more liberal voters, progressive we could say today and African-American voters. He performed very strongly among those groups and really contributed to the realignment that occurred. I mean, republicans loved to run against Henry Howe because he was something of a polarizing figure and he upset, you know, in that 1977 primary.

This is his third run for governor, that 1977 primary. This is his third run for governor. He's outspent heavily by Andy Miller who was then a popular two-term attorney general. Andy Miller carried every city and county in Virginia running for re-election in 1973, but Hal beat him in an upset in a very low turnout Democratic primary in 1977. So Andy Miller told me when I interviewed him. He said the Republicans just named their headquarters for Dick Obenshain. They should have named it for Henry Howe. He did as much to help them win as Blake did.

So there's a lot of bitterness there. And Chuck Robb, as I talk about in the Dynamic Dominion, as Chuck Robb talked about and I quote in the Dynamic Dominion, really had to sort of come in and sort of retire those combatants and say, all right, we're going to move on to something else being the Democratic Party, get beyond the Howell-Miller feud. But quite a colorful figure, you know. Keep the big boys honest was the slogan he borrowed from Warren Magnuson and, I think, washington State. But he had many, many colorful lines and he almost pulled off. I've just done a chapter of a book called the New Dominion, did a chapter on the Howell-Godwin race in 1973. And it's just remarkable how close that race was, almost by every measure.

Well, frank, and just really quickly not to dwell on this, but after Mills-Godwin's first term by anybody's estimation a textbook, wonderful, accomplished term as governor, what were the underlying reasons that that race was that close in 73?

Well, that's a great question. I mean, voters are great. But what you did for me yesterday doesn't have a whole lot to do with how I feel about you today. Godwin was a figure who just came along at the right time and managed to put together this really untenable, unsustainable coalition where the more liberal elements of the Democratic Party sort of liked the fact that he had supported Lyndon Johnson for president in 64 and was willing to challenge Byrd in those ways the more conservative elements he still had. So he had this very broad coalition in 1965. Well, that sort of exploded. Each part of that faction ran somebody for governor in 1969. Ran somebody for governor in 1969. So interestingly, godwin, even as a very popular outgoing governor in 1969, did not succeed in electing a governor of his own party to succeed him. That's when Linwood Holton won and Linwood Holton put together a comparably broad coalition of people of liberal elements that were dissatisfied with Godwin's leadership and who liked Henry Howe and were disappointed that he didn't win the nomination, and conservative elements that were ready to begin the transition over and support Republicans. So the situation by the time 73 rolls around I mean a lot has happened at that time and Henry Howe has become lieutenant governor when Sarge Reynolds died of a brain tumor in 1971.

Henry Howe won with a plurality of the vote in a three-way race and was elected. So he was the sitting lieutenant governor running for governor in 1973 and after having just won, so you know, hard to say it was. You know Godwin in many ways by 73 looked like sort of the establishment status quo candidate, establishment status quo candidate. And until Howe came out late in the campaign with this sort of ABC plan which involved some new taxes, you know Govan was almost certainly headed to lose to Howe.

Howe in many ways probably contributed to his own undoing by that late proposal. But he wanted to get rid of the sales tax on food and non-prescription drugs. He ran faulting Godwin for including that in the sales tax and Howell felt as a matter of responsibility that if he was going to get rid of a tax he needed a substitute revenue source of a tax. He needed a substitute revenue source. So he proposed a tax on he called it the ABC plan alcohol banks and corporations and Republicans sort of successfully spun it as a tax on jobs and probably made the difference in that race.

Just one more quick question then I'll turn it over to Brian. When you interviewed Governor Godwin for the dynamic dominion, did he ever comment that he was surprised it was that close, or did he give any reasons why he thought it was close?

No, no, I don't think so. I mean I asked a lot of questions and sort of laid them out there in the book. The other guy, godwin this is hard to answer this briefly, but Godwin would have preferred to run as an independent and that way he could wouldn't be turning his back on his friends in the Democratic Party and be turning his back on his friends in the Democratic Party. Ultimately he was persuaded that Republicans were going to field a candidate and in a three-way race Howell would win again. But I think Godwin probably always felt it was going to be a competitive race. I mean the sort of notion that he was only running to save Virginia from Henry Howe I don't think is one that he would completely contest it was.

He came out of retirement because Howe seemed to be such a strong figure and and he regarded him as too liberal and also too anti-business to sustain the sort of economic progress and educational progress that we've had. And it really was a turning point. That election in many ways turned us away from this sort of polarized thing and the Democrats from then on, at least up until Ralph Northam, and arguably even Northam Democrats sort of ran as center left Democrats in Virginia Republicans ran as center right. So we had a sort of moderate reasonably moderate centrist type of competition between the two parties after 73. You never had sort of a colorful polarizing figure like Henry Howe. After that We've had some very, very capable candidates, but nobody who quite matched up with Henry Howe's flamboyance.

And they'll be determined to phrase might match up with Henry Howe's flamboyance and they'll be determined to phrase. I have to say one thing he told Larry Sabato that if I came that close to beat the thoroughbred of Virginia politics, I can beat that little pony, johnny Dalton in 1977. Of course he got creamed in the 77 race. All right With that, brian I'll-.

Frank, one of the things I've always enjoyed about talking to you is that I feel literally like you're a sage, that you know. I'm like everybody. I get an idea in my head and I run with it and you'll go well. You know, I'm not so sure, maybe things were always like that. So I've always felt that when I look at picking in the legislature, the polarization can be tied back to redistricting this idea that you know, politicians pick their constituents versus constituents pick their politicians. Am I on the right track with that, in terms of particularly when it relates to the polarization in the legislature, or do you think redistricting has always been a highly political process and it's no different today than it was 50 years ago?

Well, I do think redistricting has always been a highly political process, but the difference is that with the technological capabilities that we now have to draw various districts that really right down to the street level map drawers to maximize their potential vote, it has. I think redistricting has contributed to. I think, both the technological changes and the erosion of sort of some of the traditional communities of interest and, following political subdivision, boundaries and some of the traditional factors that guided redistricting in Virginia and the country sort of got jettisoned first under the Voting Rights Act in an effort to create majority-minority districts and then of course, the constitutional interpretation on that has gone back and forth as well as congressional action under the Voting Rights Act. But the one constant has been that there's no constitutional impediment other than the one man, one person, one vote requirement. There's no constitutional impediment on partisan redistricting and so you get these very partisan plans Now Virginia.

I've always been somewhat of a skeptic on redistricting reform. I ultimately was. Legislatures show up and their only interest is making sure that they win their primary or convention, their nomination process. So they have no incentive to compromise. In fact, their main incentive is to perform for the most strident folks in their party space. So while I don't have a very strongly positive view of the ability of these alternative approaches to make the situation tons better, I became concluded that it was hard to make it any worse, and so I was supportive. What's interesting, though, as you look at what happened, is that even with a quote unquote, nonpartisan redistricting plan, there's still only, you know, a dozen, a dozen and a half at the outside and 100 member and that's probably overstating, almost certainly overstating and 100 member house that are truly competitive from a two-party standpoint. We have become much more geographically segregated in our political behavior. Rural Virginia, which used to be up for grabs, is now thoroughly red in the current parliament. Suburban voters in many places have gone from being sort of conservative-leaning independents to more reliably blue again, using the color scheme that we've all come to adopt, which, incidentally, is the opposite of the color scheme in Europe.

Exactly, that's okay, so I'm. That sounds like a lot of double talk. I will say I think not having more competitive legislative districts or, if you're talking about federal level, congressional districts, does contribute to this sort of performative, base-centric politics that has made it become a real obstacle to practical problem-solving compromises. But you're not going to fix it simply by having quote-unquote neutral line drawing because of the partisan pattern in terms of where people live and ultimately that's going to be the thing. That sort of governs that.

And again, it is just remarkable to me that you go to all the money, all the tons of money, because we have off-year elections and now the parties are funneling in different interests, funneling tons of money. You get entirely new districts, you chase away a significant number of incumbents I think we lost 700 years of seniority as a result of resignations and defeats in that 2023 cycle you get entirely new districts and everybody competes and it comes down to literally 5149 in the House, 2199 in the Senate and a shift of I think 1,800 votes in two House districts or 1,900 votes in one Senate district would have flipped the outcome in both bodies. So it is just a very competitive environment.

I'm going to ask one. We got to wrap up. I'm going to ask one last question, then I'll give Car. I'm going to ask one last question, then I'll give Carth and another chance to ask a last question, then we will wrap up.

We talked earlier about policy and how important it was in the Allen administration to have policy. I've also come to believe that candidates are important. So I have been involved a long time, like you. I remind people that even though George Allen won by that pretty significant amount, the lieutenant governor did not prevail as a Republican that year Don Beyer was his lieutenant governor and most people challenged me on it. They said how can that be correct when you look at the number of votes that? So, in other words, policy is important but at the end of the day you have to have a good candidate. And in that particular race I think to have a point spread that much the ticket splitting. That's a lot of ticket splitting to go from the number of the governor's race down to the lieutenant governor's race. Don't you think that's still another sort of a North Star in politics? That policy is important but you've got to have good candidates.

Yes, I totally agree. Now I will say I think this and I alluded to it earlier this negative partisanship and the predominance now views Brolin-Kahn of the president has produced a lot of straight ticket voting in state elections as well. You know as recently as what 2013, no 2009, tim Kaine had when he ran for governor. The Republican candidates for lieutenant governor and attorney general won too. So that's been only what? 20 years maybe, but the tendency during this era of heightened presidential focus in all levels of elections has produced more of that straight ticket voting. But you still have the ability to have a standout candidate who defies that.

And you have other factors, not just candidate skills, but level of funding is a big factor that Don Byers win, despite George Allen winning at the top of the ticket for Republicans by, you know, 18 points. Don Byers win was substantially the result of both incumbency he was running for reelection as lieutenant governor and his financial advantage, because he was really able to go on TV and attack his opponent, define his opponent, without much of a response. But you know it does raise the question could you do that in this current very partisan, polarized environment? And I don't know. We've got another chance this fall to see what happens.

We'll find out, garth just very quickly and we'll have to have you back. Frank, I hope you would agree to come back and really discuss the pending book project that you're working on. But my last question very quickly do you have any concerns? Having been on the Board of Visitors of Mr Jefferson University, do you see higher education becoming too politicized here in the Commonwealth.

I think there are plenty of criticisms that people can have of higher education and they've sort of run the gamut politically. But I think our higher education system and I'm not neutral on this, I'm active on some of these issues professionally and otherwise I really think that our education system is. You know, it was no accident that in citing Virginia, as the top state for business, cnbc said talked about the higher education system. The higher education system, I think our and the Business Higher Education Council, which I work with, just released a poll that showed very strong Republican support. In fact, virginia was a bit of a standout nationally, probably the result of having high rankings and people being proud of our higher ed system, but very strong Republican as well as Democratic support.

So I don't question that things get politicized from time to time and, without wading in on any particular issue, I do think that one of the examples that I give in the book, when it's finished, in terms of divided government, as both the education investment and standards in K-12 and the support for higher education initiatives focused on internships and pathways to jobs and using that differentiating factor to really help us brand Virginia as a talent state.

So, yeah, I think there's always room for improvement and always controversy, but I think we need to recognize what an asset our public and private to and four year and and institutions are, because they really are sort of setting us apart from the rest of the country and driving a lot of the. You know we didn't win Amazon when Amazon did this big national competition that saw where to put its second headquarters and the. It was then 25,000 jobs and $2.5 billion investment. Other states offered a lot more financial giveaways. What they liked was Virginia's higher ed system and the fact that that system was going to train more folks with computer science degrees and so forth. So it's a big asset.

Thank you, I guess, on that happy note.

Anything you'd like to add, Frank?

No, I've you know sorry for the long answers, but it's great to be with you guys and talk about these topics and I enjoy your show and your podcast and if you have me back when the book is finished, I will be able to really answer questions about it. Right now it's sort of more of a plan than a reality, but thanks for asking about it.

Thanks for having me on. We definitely want you back on, so we'll be in touch on that.

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