Speaker 2: 0:12

And now from the Blue Ridge PBS studios in Roanoke, virginia. It's the Virginians of Interest podcast, with your hosts Brian Campbell and Carthin Curran.

Speaker 1: 0:22

Hello and welcome to the Virginians of Interest podcast. My name is Brian Campbell. I'm here with my friend, carthin Curran, who's going to introduce a special guest this afternoon.

Speaker 3: 0:29

Thank you, brian. We're delighted to have with us today, for me especially, a friend that I've known for 30 years and our family has been close to the former Speaker of the Virginia House of Delegates, kirk Cox. Kirk welcome.

Speaker 4: 0:43

Carthen, thank you, appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 0:45

We're very happy to have you with us today. I want to touch on a variety of subjects, but first can you, for our listeners, give us a little history of your background, where you grew up and where you went to college, and your affinity for the game called baseball?

Speaker 4: 1:02

Yeah, so I grew up in Colonial Heights, virginia, and it's a small, wonderful city of 16,000, the way Virginia should be, where everyone knows each other and you're basically if you haven't lived there all your life, it's a big disadvantage politically, so very helpful to me because my mother taught school there, my brother was school superintendent, so really a really cool place. So that's where I grew up and, interestingly enough, I come from a teacher background so that was always my passion. I ended up being a middle school civics teacher and government teacher. So in Petersburg, the inner city, prince George more of a rural area and Chesterfield County. So I did that for 30 years and really interesting, if you're a government teacher you probably should have some practical experience in government. So I've been teaching for maybe three or four years and I go. You know I really. You know I've been involved in the Republican Party but I've never really done anything that I can really relate to my kids on campaigns and public policy.

Speaker 4: 2:16

So I left teaching for a year and drove Wyatt Durette 1985 when he ran for governor and interestingly enough, when you're the driver you're the lowest paid guy on the campaign. So I made 500 bucks a month but it was really cool because when you're the driver you're the lowest paid guy on the campaign. So I made 500 bucks a month. But it was really cool because when you're the driver you're with the candidate all the time. And remember, in Virginia there are only two generally governor's elections in the off year. It was New Jersey and Virginia back then. So President Reagan was president, one of my heroes, and he campaigned for us, got to meet him. President Bush campaigned for us, l to meet him. President Bush campaigned for us, liddy Dole, jack Kemp. So pretty good to be the driver. Only problem is we lost pretty badly. We lost all four coin flips for all the debates. It sort of flooded in the valley in all good areas on election day so that part didn't go well.

Speaker 3: 3:06

Well, actually we met during that campaign. I was just out of college and I was volunteering helping Wyatt. In fact I drove him one time, that's when he ran for attorney general. I was an intern for Tom Bliley and Boyd Marcus asked me if I could drive Wyatt down through the valley Anyway.

Speaker 1: 3:28

So that was your that was a race against Gerald Bliles, gerald Bliles.

Speaker 3: 3:31

And they ran against each other twice. That was a race.

Speaker 4: 3:34

And the funny thing is Wyatt had lost to Jerry Bliles four years early and was supposed to win and probably lost because of Chuck Robb's coattails against Marshall Coleman Right, and it's so funny. I think that probably the biggest mistake we made in that race was almost we ran as the incumbent because I probably should have won four years before. But yeah, great guy Enjoyed the race and for someone who is a small town kid from Colonial Heights, you know pretty cool to really just get to meet and talk to so many cool people and I'll say this to Carthens, you know all these folks. So on that campaign now remember we're the losing campaign. We lose by seven or eight points.

Speaker 4: 4:17

On that campaign is Frank Atkinson who goes on to be in Governor Allen's cabinet, don Lemons who goes on to be the Chief Justice of Supreme Court, todd Stoudemire who goes on to be Rector of William Mary and Judy Pic who founds the Watson Center for Politics and Government, cnu, and we were the losing campaign. So I tell people all the time man, if you're in your 20s and you know this man, get involved in the campaign because they'll let you do things you can't do with a business or a corporation until you're like 50.

Speaker 1: 4:45

The keys to the car. It really was a great experience. Yeah, Well, real quickly before we move on, because we had Jeannie Bilal's on and she brought up something that I went back and looked at.

Speaker 1: 4:58

Wyatt Durrett wrote an op-ed, I think after Gerald Bilal's had died, a man who he had lost twice to. That was one of the more moving op-eds that I have in my memory about what a great man Gerald Bilal's was, and it really sort of showed you what's possible in terms of being opposed to one another. You know what I'm talking about, don't you Kirk that op-ed.

Speaker 4: 5:13

I really do, because you know I took that very hard. I was young and I was a big Wyatt fan. I'm a conservative Republican but I went to Jerry Bilal's funeral and really got I wouldn't say close to him but I talked him a lot and and really really enjoyed his mentorship and et cetera. So, yeah, it's, it can be done, it really can be. I was laughing at.

Speaker 4: 5:39

Somebody called me the other day, I won't say who, it was Sort of out of the blue and said because you know, we had obviously and look, I'm a movement conservative Republican but tried to work on veterans issues and higher ed issues We'll talk about some of those and he goes. You know, could you tell me how you sort of got that done with the Democrats, because today that just seems really really difficult and I go, it's just all relationships. I mean, it's the Tip O'Neill, ronald Reagan. You got to know people and you can't think they're evil. You've got to know people and you can't think they're evil. You can have very strong beliefs. You've got to find some commonality and there are a whole host of issues you can find commonality on, and so I think Wyatt and Jerry certainly did that later on.

Speaker 1: 6:22

Yeah, good example.

Speaker 3: 6:23

So, kirk, as you began your political career and from a current perspective, I'm proud that my dad was Kirk's first treasurer when he ran for the House of Delegates Talk to me about your getting into politics. Running for that seat you were running against an incumbent Democrat, chip Dix, and then kind of the ascension from your time in the House to the time that you became Speaker. What a ride that has been and maybe for our listeners, give us some background on your decision to get into politics and run for the House and then see the Republican Party grow, because when you were elected to the House I can't remember but how many members were in the Republican caucus.

Speaker 4: 7:10

Yeah, there were like 39. So it's an interesting journey. So we lose in the direct campaign and it's November and losing campaigns. And Wyatt was generous. They paid us for a week. I mean, you're out of money and so not a lot of school teaching jobs in November. And so I ended up at Laurie Bird High School teaching at that time sort of a the emotionally disturbed is what they said at that point. But just kids struggle with those types of things. Best thing that ever happened to me, because I really learned you know how to deal with, you know really work with kids that had struggles and they were great kids and so that was. That was good experience going to Manchester high school. But I got the fire. I go, you know, I observed a campaign. I think I can do this myself. It's a house of delegates campaign.

Speaker 4: 8:02

I'm a hard worker, you know, and luck, and I had no idea what I was doing, candidly. So I'm running against Chip Dix and Chip was, very frankly, pretty popular and Chip had his eyes he'll tell you this, had his eyes on Attorney General. He was sort of the rising star and he allowed me to sort of walk all summer long. I knocked on every door. Your dad was a hero to me, sonny Curran, because what happened was look, I'm some young school teacher who, frankly, is struggling to get any money, to raise any money. He was not only my, he was my finance chairman when I had really struggled to get people at the beginning to endorse me. But we had students stand on every street corner every morning and every afternoon, just hold up signs and laughing and sort of being part of your day. You should drink your coffee in the morning and afternoon, and we did that every single morning and afternoon. I knocked every day from April on, got bit by two dogs, and so we were there by September. Chip had let us sort of get in it and we won a very, very close race. I want to say this he's become one of my good friends and I think that's that's also a tough race. I mean, you're not good friends with anyone after the race, just generally doesn't work that way. But you know he's come to, almost, came to almost all my breakfasts. We had basketball in common, we played against each other and a good guy and good especially business acumen, et cetera. So really enjoy my time with Chip.

Speaker 4: 9:30

But, having said that, ended up winning, we were in the distinct minority at that time and a young guy named George Allen who was in that caucus and Vance Wilkins really wanted to get us out of minority status. I mean it was you know, the majority is everything in the legislature. I mean that's how you get things done. The Republicans have never been in the majority. So those two folks probably did more to lift the party up and recruit candidates. I mean Vance traveled all over the place et cetera, and I really got into that.

Speaker 4: 10:03

That was one of my goals. I was one of his lieutenants and we uh, we actually ended up writing about an 80-page book just on good constituent service and what you should be doing. And my monitor always was if you're really serving your constituents, if you really care about them and that means knocking on doors not just in election time, I mean year-round and just doing all those small things you're much more likely to win than if you don't do any of those things and ignore your constituents. So I was fortunate Rose to coach. We had power sharing around 2000. So I co-chaired the Chesapeake Committee with Gerald Jones, who's now a prominent judge, and then you remember this person, will Carth and Dick Thomas and the old Conservation Committee.

Speaker 4: 10:50

Good, good conservative Democrat, but then just sort of did the traditional climb, ended up chairing the committee, became whip around 2007,. Majority leader in 2010 to Bill Howe, who I admire greatly, then speaker, uh, but that rouse was probably, uh, you know, I think probably more not talent, hard work, uh, and you know I just I love public policy we will talk about education in a second but just love trying to get things done, and speaker is the position you can get the most done. And so, um, that was, I mean, obviously, besides getting married and my wonderful family, the biggest honor of my life being a 55th speaker.

Speaker 1: 11:35

You know you're a schoolteacher, so all the time this part-time legislature. So you were a schoolteacher and a member of the General Assembly. Was that true? Even when you were Speaker, too, Were you doing both things?

Speaker 4: 11:44

I retired by then, but for 22 years I did both and I'm the biggest advocate of that in the world. You have some people now and look, it's tough. We go into a special session a lot now. We have extended sessions. But a citizen legislature that model that obviously the Virginia founders developed is absolutely the key model.

Speaker 4: 12:05

I'll tell you why. It's because when I taught you pass education policy, you go back in the classroom. You see, you know, you see the effect that has on everyone and it's very important and I can remember very well. You know the way that we worked. You know I'd have people in front of me saying we got to do this education program and I'm laughing going. If we do that in the classroom, the kids will just laugh at you and revolt. I mean that won't work. That's the most impractical thing I've ever seen and it gives you, but once you get out you still don't have that.

Speaker 4: 12:36

So the John O'Bannon's, you know, who were the experts in healthcare he was so good. The Ted Greeson's, you know, was experts in technology. You know the Jimmy Massey's experts in finance. That model was Because you're immersed in those professions and you can really bring that real world experience. And that's why Congress doesn't work candidly to me, and so that's really important for Virginia to keep that final. So I did both. I loved it. It was tough because I'd be at school at 630 in the morning and then I'd get home sometimes at 7 or 8 at night because you're doing speeches and doing other things. But I loved it.

Speaker 3: 13:14

It's a great opportunity night because you're doing speeches and doing other things, but I loved it. It's a great opportunity. Look, kirk, obviously I know, and our listeners will find out your passion for education and your work with the young people. So as your career in the House evolved, you did become chairman of the House Education Committee. Am I? I did?

Speaker 4: 13:31

I actually chaired the House Agricultural Conservation, natural Resources Committee. You would think I would chair education. Really interesting story. When I came in won't mention names the speaker was mad at me because, well, speaker Phil Pott, brilliant man he was mad at me because I'd beaten Chip Dixie who was one of his protégés and so, being the fool that I am, I write him this impassioned letter saying I need to go on the education committee in a nice way because I'm a school teacher and I love all that.

Speaker 4: 14:03

Well, I found out three things. Number one he didn't really like school teachers on education. He didn't like me and so it was like the worst thing I could have done, so I never sniffed education. He put me on ACNR. Excuse me, wasn't ACNR Conservation, chesapeake Bay and General Laws? So how ironic in life that when Vance Wilkins becomes speaker, he rolls the old Conservation Committee and the Chesapeake Bay Committee, agriculture Committee together and makes me chairman, which you know was interesting. But I did go on to be on a probes, which you mentioned, and that's where I did all my K-12 work and I chaired the higher ed subcommittee. And what's so interesting about the legislature is the reality of the legislature is, you know, almost everything comes through the appropriation. So even if a big education bill comes through education generally, it's got to be funded, and so it comes to appropriation.

Speaker 1: 15:00

So even if a big education bill comes through education generally, it's got to be funded, and so it comes to appropriation. So that's where I did most of my K-12 work. Help me understand. I want to get to the speaker stuff, because you said something interesting about Speaker Philpott and the ability to reward and punish and how that's used and not used. But also back to the committee chair thing. So that was as you were rising, you were getting these committee chairs and ultimately becoming speaker. These were in varied legislatures. Some Republicans were in the majority and some not Correct. When you were chair, they had to be in the majority Right.

Speaker 4: 15:30

So you co-chaired committees and you know, if you remember it was, it was a crazy time back around 2000 because we ended up picking up some seats in special elections and so actually we got to 50-50 after we gaveled in. So we of course protested. They basically didn't give us much of anything. Tom Moss was speaker and they took all the committee chairmanship. So we worked at this power sharing agreement, which actually worked, frankly, very well.

Speaker 4: 16:04

And what I find interesting today is you know they're back at the 51-49 type situation again and so you know you could have power sharing again. It's a good model. But I mean, you're right, it was. I thought that was really, really interesting. But I made the point to be in the majority. You know you're chairman and obviously the speaker comes out of the majority, the majority leader comes out of the majority, so that's where you get things done. I mean the minority is effective. I mean you're the conscience of the other side, you lay out those issues, but much more fun to be in the majority those issues, but much more fun to be in the majority.

Speaker 1: 16:35

Well, one last question about being speaker. So when you had the power, that speaker was it. Was it tempting occasionally to sort of you know, to say this person has not been a good team player or has been because the speaker.

Speaker 4: 16:47

You're right. The speaker is an interesting position because you're the only person in the body in the highest leadership wise. That's in the Virginia constitution Everyone elects a speaker. Now the reality of life is the majority caucus nominates a speaker and then everyone votes for them. The tradition is everyone votes for the speaker. So, if you recall, I became speaker in crazy circumstances. We basically gone from 67 seats to that year, 50 seats ended up being 50-50, basically. And you remember, david Yancey, who was a delegate down at Newport News, ended up in a tie race. It was really 50-49. And if he loses that race, then we're at 50-50. And they did a recount. They did everything according to code. It was still 11,450 to 11,450. So they drew a name out of a Virginia Museum bowl and it happened to be David Yancey.

Speaker 3: 17:51

So that's how I became a speaker. I saw it on television. It was crazy yeah.

Speaker 4: 17:55

So you're talking about a tenant, you're talking about, you know, on the edge. So when I came in it was a little bit strange because I didn't really know all speaker for good until like January 2nd or 3rd and we went in like January 10th. But sure, I mean you, you know you got to use that that smartly. The speaker really picks all the committee chairs. Even though the committee chairs pick their subcommittee chairs, they run them by the speaker and, frankly, you really pick who goes on all the committees. There's sort of a steering committee that helps you.

Speaker 4: 18:27

But you make the decisions and you know, when I got, when I was speaker, I had Luke Torian second my nomination, because I think it's very helpful to work with the other side. But sure, you're right, I mean you, you want to be smart about it. Committee chairmen are usually the most senior members of the committee, but not always, because if they haven't worked real hard and you know they haven't done a very good job, you just don't want to give them that position and so sometimes you have to make tough decisions like that. It's like a baseball team. I mean you know you're paying a guy you know $20 million to play and he's hitting 120. I mean, at some point you got to make a decision and it was the same way and you do a little bit of message sending, but you can certainly overplay that.

Speaker 1: 19:14

Do you think your background in sports and also being a school teacher made you a little bit more even-tempered? Maybe?

Speaker 4: 19:22

I don't know if that's the right word. Yeah, I don't think there's any question. I mean, sports is so much. You know getting up in the ninth inning and middle, second and third and two outs, and you know can you drive the run in and coaching. You know dealing with all different kinds of talent and I mean I had kids that were so natural that they were going to hit 400, and other kids I totally changed their swing because if I didn't they would hit like 100. But it's the same thing. You're right, you got to really read personality. Some kids you can really, you know, really motivate by getting on them a little bit. Some kids you can't do that as much with. And the legislature is exactly the same way. You've got some delegates that you can really motivate by sending them messages, and others different. So it's very much like managing a basketball or baseball team. I think that skill was very helpful. That's wonderful.

Speaker 4: 20:13

You want to be a player's coach, but not too much of a player's coach, yeah.

Speaker 3: 20:17

Well, having been a majority leader, you work closely with Speaker Howell, so you were up close to that position which, with 100 members the speaker's position is designed to be a very powerful position. I think it has to be it really is.

Speaker 4: 20:31

It's an extremely powerful position. It's unlike the state Senate where power is really dispersed. I mean, even though you have a Senate majority leader. I mean you chair joint rules, you chair the rules committee, you decide what bills go to what committee, and so that's extremely, and some of them go. You generally go by the code. It's an agricultural bill, it goes to ACNR. But having said that, you can send things to rules and send things to other things and you can do a lot of smart message sending. It's like anything else. If you overuse that, then it doesn't work as well. If you never use it, then no one believes you will use it. So it's you really got to think those things through, yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:13

Well, let's for a moment discuss the other body, your relationship with the Virginia Senate and just how that relationship between the two chambers during your time in the house, how that evolved, or there's obviously competition and different agendas and prerogatives, I guess, of each body. But I think for our listeners to have somebody that you served in the House over two decades and had experiences with the other body, any stories you'd like to share with us that were either funny or some tense moments either funny or some tense moments, I guess over the budget is probably the area that would probably cause the biggest opportunities for conflict.

Speaker 4: 22:05

It's a great question. My advice to Speaker Fullicorn when she was going to take over, when they got the majority, was you need to worry about the Senate more than you need to worry about, even you think, the Republicans in the House, and that almost you know, is regardless of party. There's a natural not bad natural tension between the two bodies. It's really interesting. They see each other differently. Senate has that four-year term, we have a two-year term. I laugh. You have a lot more robust debate in the House. I mean, the House is the people's House, so it's just different. The Senate is a little bit more laid back but also much more rule-driven. So, yeah, I had mainly really good relationships with the Senate but boy, there was a lot of, there was a lot of tension.

Speaker 4: 22:59

I can remember one time that, uh, the Senate really badly wanted a tunnel. This is years ago. They wanted a tunnel to go from the old general assembly building to the uh, the Capitol and we thought we're not spending a million bucks for a tunnel and it's different, you know. So I laugh because we have a tunnel now, but actually that works very well because it's now a tunnel where actually your constituents and the public can go through, and it really does help. But this was just sort of like a tunnel we didn't think much of and so we got very contentious. They wanted it very badly and there were two or three issues like that that were holding up the entire budget, and so I mean you do things to sort of get on the nerves of the other side. So we had uh, there were seven Senate conferees with seven black umbrellas printed up with Senate.

Speaker 4: 23:55

Plan B and so basically he handed me the umbrella and basically said hey, you guys can use an umbrella when you walk. I said this is a much cheaper alternative and that didn't go over real well.

Speaker 4: 24:10

And eventually got a deal but it didn't go over very well. And I can remember one time with Senator Sasslaw we were like the chief negotiators on education and you know, we weren't. We just weren't getting there, and Dick would be very frank with you which I liked and Dick said this just isn't happening. You need to go upstairs and adjourn the heist because we're not going anywhere. And I go, why don't you go upstairs and adjourn the Senate, dick? And 30 minutes later we're cutting the deal. So it just it went so far.

Speaker 4: 24:42

I love budget negotiations because it was really interesting. But it would go so far that sometimes you would eat dinner with each other before you started. That was actually negotiated. You know we ate up on the Senate floor on Tuesday. You were eating on the House floor on Wednesday because now you're on all turf. So it was an interesting relationship.

Speaker 3: 25:03

Just real quick a follow-up question, Kirk, In your experience in the House, the relationship with the third floor, the governor's office, during your time in the House, how many governors did you serve with?

Speaker 4: 25:19

Well, I started with Governor Wilder and of course that was interesting because I mean, obviously, being the first Black governor. We did the inauguration, as you know, there were ambassadors from Africa, it was absolutely packed and so I served. So Governor Wilder, and then, of course, governor Allen, which was so historic for Republicans, and Governor Gilmore, and then you know Warner King, mcdonald, mcauliffe, northam, so what is that Seven, something like that? What is that Seven, something like that? But it was interesting. All of my. Frankly, I mean I got along with all of them fairly well. I mean obviously the Republicans.

Speaker 1: 26:05

I was closer to.

Speaker 4: 26:05

I was very close to George Allen. He actually let me share his pack and I'd only been in like four years and so he invited me as one of the early leaders to his leadership practices and so he was really good to me. Uh, I really was close to Jim Gilmore. Uh, ray Allen was my campaign manager and of course, was close to him. And I love Roxanne and just you know, very, very sad about her passing. She was a wonderful lady and she was big on history, so, uh, so I was, I was, was close to him and of course I was very close to bob donald. Bob was my seatmate and uh, you know, for five years and we just, uh, we just really got along. But it was sort of funny, I was close to him.

Speaker 4: 26:46

But you know, bill howe and I used to laugh because we were very close to bob and uh, but if you knew Governor McDonald well, this is good, he read every bill ad nauseum and so when it came to amending the budget, he'd have like 160 amendments. I mean, you know, I mean he's, he's going to you on page 50. What do you mean by line three? And so, which is good, but a lot of amendments, and we would go see him sometimes and just give advice. And about the third or fourth time we'd go see him, you know, during the budget negotiations we would go your good friends are here once again to see you, governor. And he would laugh, you know, because we were always giving him advice. But he was a great guy. I loved him.

Speaker 3: 27:31

I loved him. I will say a funny story, speaking to Governor McDonald, a good friend of mine, former Senator William Womper. When he was elected he said oh, he's going to be one of these tinkerers. He's going to tinker around a lot with the budget and such. It was kind of funny.

Speaker 1: 27:49

Brian, this is going back in your history a little bit because we didn't really cover this as much Sports you used a lot of baseball analogies a minute ago.

Speaker 4: 28:03

Was that your go-to? Were you a baseball coach? I was. So I coached basketball and baseball and, frankly, I wasn't going to go into politics, I was going to be an award-winning varsity basketball and baseball coach that would break all kinds of Virginia high school records. But then I got elected in 1989 and I just, I just it got where I'd done middle school, I'd done JD both basketball and baseball and I was right at the point where you know I was going to start applying for varsity jobs. And then of course that's not happening in the legislature because you know you're obviously in in January and February. So basketball is that season and baseball they were the kids reporting early February. But I coached 16 years. I coached my own boys. I coached some all star teams. They were big into sports. So I love that. That was so much fun. So I'm a big.

Speaker 4: 28:53

We in Colonial Heights have something called Shepard Stadium. It's the most iconic baseball stadium. I mean this in Virginia. It's home of the Chili Peppers now. So if your listeners are familiar with Cosmic Baseball, which made ESPN, you know where they play, basically sort of glow-in-the-dark baseball, but it's this neat, iconic stadium that looks like Camden Yards when you walk in. It has that brick front, it has an old-timey scoreboard, it has the cool old stadium seating, it's got beer gardens, it's got you know all kinds. It's just iconic.

Speaker 4: 29:25

So when I retired, when I stepped down, they did my retirement party at Shepherd Stadium and they put up on the scoreboard. I was from the 66th District and they put up on the scoreboard. I was from the 66th District and they put up all this other cool things and my retirement food were hot dogs, chili, popcorn, et cetera. Nice, nice, if you look at my picture as speaker, because I wanted to be different, right, I love that In the corner it has the mace. And then I wanted something that represented Colonial Heights and something that represented Chesterfield, and so for Colonial Heights, I have a picture of Shepard's Statement at the bottom of my painting for speaker, nice, that's great.

Speaker 1: 30:06

Well, you know, hearing you talk today about Vance Wilkins and sports, it reminds me of George Allen when we did him on the podcast. And don't you think too and I was involved in politics many years ago too that it was more of a? It was like sports? It was sort of it was pretty hyper competitive, but it was also a little bit more structured too? I always thought that sports was a great analogy for politics. The way I understood it.

Speaker 4: 30:30

Oh, very much. So I can remember when I chaired Governor Allen's path Garth can remember this why. I mean he would do these speeches and carry a football with him and then at the end of the speech, throw a football at you. He had more football analogies. What was so funny? He was a good football player.

Speaker 4: 30:53

Democrat-republican basketball game that's when the delegates played each other. It was very competitive. We had never beaten them because I mean, obviously they had big majorities and so I coached the team and I can remember that they had Tom Jackson who was all ODAC. I mean he was a fantastic player. You know, we did a really good job. We got it where it was tied with eight seconds to go, and I called Tom I and they've got the ball and I go make sure you don't foul. Blah, blah, blah. And so, sure enough, we go back out there and Jackie Stump is impossible to foul because he was like 280. And somehow George Allen managed to foul him so hard that I think he knocked him to the floor and then Jackie Stump went down and made a one-on-one and we lost.

Speaker 3: 31:48

Well, that's Wow. That's Doesn't get any better than that. All three of us know George well, so I'm not shocked. But changing gears, tell us, I'm so excited about your current role and I couldn't think of a better person to be in this role. And it's a very important role because it's about higher education and the commonwealth and I think we all agree that we have some of the best in the country. But if you could, for our listeners, describe your new role as president of the Higher Education Business Council.

Speaker 4: 32:21

Well, thanks, garth. And so when I retired I really was going to retire and then I did that for about five months and probably, like a lot of people that are sort of driven, was getting a little bit bored and I had the Virginia Business Higher Education Council approach me. Very unique group. It is around 25 business CEOs, c-suite executives, big and small, so everything from Dominion Altria Corallian to Mark Pace, who owns a really thriving small construction business, et cetera. So you've got a lot of variety and their goal. They were formed back in 1994, and their goal was basically to make sure that not only was higher ed funded but it was accountable, et cetera, and they were really doing practical policies that led to great jobs for students, that kept them in Virginia. Essentially that's how you had a thriving economy, that's how you're going to be number one for business, etc.

Speaker 4: 33:20

So Don Finley, of course, was very well known. He'd done so much in Virginia government. You know he just stepped down. He'd done it for about 20 years. So they asked me to do the job and I went. You know that's sort of perfect for me because I want to do public policy. So they asked me to do the job and I went. You know, that's sort of perfect for me because I want to do public policy. They'll be really good.

Speaker 3: 33:43

And so I took that job and the focus right now, since you've been there, what type of initiatives you know?

Speaker 4: 33:50

we have something we call Growth for Virginia and that's sort of our branding, our big initiative for Virginia, and that's sort of our branding, our big initiative. We think the biggest thing you can do to move the needle is what we call affordable talent pathways and, more specifically, internships, and so that's our big focus. As a matter of fact, I'm very happy in the state budget this year they actually, in budget language, have the goal that the college presidents, businesses, everyone's agreed on. It's an ambitious goal that every student will have a paid internship by the end of their four years, hopefully in their field of study, and not adding to the time of your degree, not bleeding into a fifth year, and I just think that's absolutely a game changer.

Speaker 4: 34:34

I won't drone on about this, but look in teaching, this is so natural. You wouldn't think about putting the teacher into a classroom, and I started at Peabody Middle School in Petersburg, which I loved. It was an inner city school and I'm this young 21-year-old kid that looked like he was like 12. You wouldn't think about teaching without doing a practicum and student teaching. You just don't have any practical experience. We do that all the time in every other field. We just throw you in, you're applying for a job and a lot of students today don't even have those skills.

Speaker 4: 35:11

I think the thought would be some practicality there. Let's align the curriculum frankly. Number one let's make sure that small businesses are involved. They'll keep kids in Virginia because that job offer off, that internship, you know that will really help keep them in Virginia. And the reason why we call it affordable talent pathways is because they have they really need to be paid internships. If you have a first gen kid who's struggling and he's going to go back and work at McDonald's, he's going to go work a job in the summer because he's got to make money, it's not going to be able to take an unpaid internship and it's really interesting.

Speaker 4: 35:44

The data just shows that's very, very effective. But I thought this was I'll read you one stat which I thought was interesting Strata I think y'all knew Stephen Murray who was with BEDP. Right, I think y'all know Stephen Murray who was with BEDP. Strata is a big sort of education network in all 50 states and they're really really big on internships and they talk a lot about underemployment. So even if you get your four-year degree, you know over 50 percent of students are underemployed, which is a real, real problem. But I thought this was interesting. They have two stats and I'll read those. I don't think I'll read to you today, but college-level employment rates are higher for those who complete an internship. Controlling for other factors, the odds of underemployment for grads who had an internship were nearly 50% lower. Here's the one I thought was interesting. I'm actually speaking today, which will be to the 70-year legacy of Brown versus Board of Education and they're really looking at this whole thing. How can we particularly help minority businesses and first-gen kids? I thought this one was interesting. Institution-type race, ethnicity, gender and geography matter with respect to post-graduation occupational outcomes, but typically not as much as college majors or internships. So I'm going to basically posit to them today that's a game changer If we can really get kids especially liberal arts majors, you know to really have a really good internship.

Speaker 4: 37:09

And my last example will be this you know, I was a political science major. I loved government history. I didn't want to do anything else. So I thought to myself well, you can be a lawyer, you know, you can work. I loved government history. I didn't want to do anything else. So I thought to myself well, you can be a lawyer I laugh, this is 1970s. Work in a museum where you can teach. And teaching was a big thing for me because my mother and brother taught. But I thought about being a lawyer, et cetera and all that. But in those days those were your choices. Of course, I ended up being a teacher. But you have a lot of the colleges today with their liberal arts majors. Because they're good critical thinkers, they put them with a small business, they put them on internships where they think they can really thrive. It's not necessarily in these sort of boxes that you think and that's been very successful. That's very interesting.

Speaker 3: 37:53

I would like to, because my good friend and colleague and co-host, brian Campbell, is in higher education. I'm curious to get Kirk your view and Old Dominion on the whole pharmaceutical nexus that's been created in Petersburg.

Speaker 1: 38:24

Yeah, or life sciences Life sciences, I'm sorry, life sciences.

Speaker 3: 38:27

So, kirk, I was curious to get your take on.

Speaker 1: 38:30

The General Assembly did approve, yeah, and actually I was going to make a follow-up to that, Kirk, and that is that you know, our demographics in the United States and in Virginia are not where it used to be.

Speaker 1: 38:40

You were all about the same age where there were a lot of us and there were always plenty of us coming out, and some of us went in the military, Some of us went to college, Some of us went to work at the shipyard I'm from Tidewater and we just don't have people thinking like that anymore. So it's really one of the things that I'm sort of curious about in higher ed is the ability to adapt right and higher ed is not always known for adaptation but this ability to like certifications, for instance, so you may be a mechanical engineer but you get a certification in automation or cybersecurity. So in other words, the ability to almost sort of have even more specialized training in addition to that baccalaureate degree. Do you see that, in addition to the internships and everything else being a role as important for higher education to evolve to meet the demands of what the 21st century will bring?

Speaker 4: 39:26

Oh, I think. No question, brian. I think they go hand in hand. So when I internships is shorthand for apprenticeships and various other things too it's just not what you would think of as a four-year college internship, and I think we're all over that. Newport News Shipyard's on our board. We have a lot of folks that need a lot of certificates, et cetera, two-year degrees. So I couldn't agree more with that.

Speaker 4: 39:49

I think the problem that we have in higher education education is the pendulum swings from one end to the other. So I've gone through everything in education. So it goes to where, several years ago, you had to have a four-year degree, no matter what. I mean, that was your ticket and that was never right. I mean, frankly, we should have been emphasizing career in tech for much more than we have. I love what some of the high schools are doing now. Henrico actually has, you know cool, you know graduations and they have, you know, big celebrations for kids to get their certificates and you know they're just like. You know that you would want a big scholarship. I mean it's a big deal, I mean. So we should have been doing that all along. You know, I don't think we should let the pendulum go all the other way. But so many of those jobs are like that and I'll give you a quick example when I talk about affordable talent pathways, you've got great models and I love what Governor Youngkin's doing in that space.

Speaker 4: 40:47

And one of our pillars of our growth in Virginia is innovation and that is enhancing entrepreneurship and the quality of life through problem-solving innovation. So that's certainly one of our pillars. But I'll give you an example Blue Ridge Partnership. I've been running it, so that's something. Carillion sort of started the healthcare system, but what they did was they are partnering now with middle schools, high schools, higher ed, everyone in the healthcare field, business-wise, and they have mapped that to your point what they need over the next year, next five years, next 10 years, broadly in the healthcare field, and that can be everything from a doc, a nurse, a respiratory therapist, the technology person, the chef that's obviously going to do food services, and they've gone into the middle and high schools and they're talking about model curriculums. They've got actually ambassadors who've graduated from the program that go back into the high schools and it's just a really neat model and so you can sort of you know, see everyone in that region working together and a lot of that is certificate driven and et cetera.

Speaker 4: 41:54

So I do think we've got to be much more innovative. That practicality piece is very, very big and, frankly, a rebound to higher ed's advantage, because people want to see results and they want to see ROI and if you're producing those kinds of jobs that are really needed and students are being successful, their families would be successful. You know, when I was a high school teacher and I had parent teacher conferences, it was just amazing. I mean, if the economy was good and things were good and people had good jobs, I mean students' lives were just better. It's the way life works and if people are struggling, they're frustrated and they're not being able to get good jobs. It reflects in everything you do in life. So I do think that's a big game changer.

Speaker 3: 42:43

All right, kirk, I would like your views on something that you and I have discussed of late. What can we do, assuming that you agree with my question? What can we do in public schools in Virginia to bring civics back in the curriculum in a stronger way?

Speaker 4: 43:13

I think that's absolutely essential. I mean it's just the foundation of everything that you do and I've always told people I mean it's just absolutely essential. All students know how we got here and why this is to me, the greatest experiment to represent democracy, of democracy and what are all those timeless principles that are in the Constitution, the Declaration. Then you have to know your history and you know. This is so interesting that you know because you just learn so many, so many lessons. So I would say that you know. I think it's absolutely essential that you know.

Speaker 4: 43:53

I taught, when I taught you at seventh grade, us history. You had eighth grade civics. You had 11th grade United States history. You had 12th grade government. And the other thing that I think is central is when you do 12th grade government, that you also have state government. So ours has always been US and Virginia government, because I do think you know that's absolutely essential. But I think that's got to be a pillar. You know, there's no question, a lot of the jobs are in science and tech. But if you're going to get great critical thinkers, I think they have to be versed in that and you're never going to have great citizens if they're not versed in that they just won't be motivated to do that. So and it's interesting I'm a big supporter of the public school system. I'm also a big supporter of innovation and so, whether it be a governor school or a lab school that emphasizes some of those you know, especially in the history and government area, you know I'm all for that. I think that's that's very helpful. It can be an incubator.

Speaker 1: 44:57

You can be really creative in that space well, well stated you know, kirk, just listening to you, you, you you're such a tireless advocate for service and public policy and education. Was there something other than driving wide direct? I mean, and it's clear you wanted to be a school teacher because that was in your family, but was it just that experience of driving wide direct that really sort of lit the flame?

Speaker 4: 45:25

Not actually. It's interesting because this almost goes back to Carson's question on school. So around the dinner table at my house we did sports and politics and I had a great uncle and he was, I mean, just the iconic great uncle who had a car dealership and he retired. He lived in Florida and he would come to our house with his humidor full of cigars and he would eat lamb chops at 10 o'clock for breakfast and then he would not eat lunch for breakfast and then he would not eat lunch. Then he would eat steak and rib roast for dinner. So we lived high on the hog for two weeks but he would talk politics the entire time. He was there and he actually had been out in California with his sister and they, when you know, nixon was coming along and Ronald Reagan, et cetera, and so you know that was what we talked about and I just grew to love it because that was the dinnertime conversation and that's.

Speaker 4: 46:25

I think that's one of the problems for kids today is whether it be government and history or just what your dad does at work. If you don't get that, it's just really hard then to have either interest in it or have those I hate to use the word soft skills or whatever when you go into a job place, because you're never exposed to that. I was very fortunate, my parents were very good about that and we had a regular dinner time, and so I just loved history. I mean. So my brother too. I mean my brother was a history teacher and I was history and government teacher.

Speaker 1: 46:59

That's a wonderful story. I wish I'd known your great uncle. What was his name?

Speaker 4: 47:02

Oh he was a classic. What's his name? Joseph Atkins. He was an absolute. He would write his congressman, he would, he would, I mean he'd write these long letters. So he very much, and his sister was exactly like that too. So they were true patriots.

Speaker 3: 47:21

Being a cigar fan, I would have really enjoyed meeting them. Well, that's what I was trying to figure out.

Speaker 1: 47:27

I thought I could imagine driving wide direct would be transformational, but I couldn't see it being that transformational. Anyway, Carth, do you have any?

Speaker 3: 47:34

we're about ready to wrap up, I'll just end by saying, as a former House page, it's a privilege to have a former Speaker of the Virginia House of Delegates with us today, and, kirk, I value our friendship for many years and please give Julie my best.

Speaker 4: 47:51

Well, thanks, carthens and Brian Carthens, you've been a great friend and I really do say I can. I can honestly say that if Sonny Curran had not stepped up, I would have never made it to the ISA delegate. So pretty cool connection.

Speaker 1: 48:05

Well, thank you, and I don't have the long history with you, kirk that Carth does, but I will. I always knew you. Everybody talked about you as a good guy. They were. You were always one of those people that my friends always sort of represented as a role model from the way you comported yourself and behaved.

Speaker 1: 48:21

And I think what struck me and I wrote this down and I said you're a wonderful example of a lifelong commitment to public service and I can't think of a better way to describe you than that. So I thank you for your time today. I appreciate you being with us.

Speaker 4: 48:37

Great. Thank you so much, brian. You guys take care. Thank you sir.

Speaker 1: 48:42

Thank you for joining us today on the Virginians of Interest podcast. If you like what you've heard today, please like, subscribe and share our podcast.

Speaker 2: 48:48

Thank you for listening to the Virginians of Interest podcast. To hear other episodes of this podcast, head to virginiansofinterestcom.