Speaker 3: 0:12

And now from the Blue Ridge PBS studios in Roanoke, virginia. It's the Virginians of Interest podcast, with your hosts Brian Campbell and Carthan Curran.

Speaker 1: 0:22

Hello and welcome to the Virginians of Interest podcast. We're especially excited today to have a special guest and my friend Carthan will introduce our guest.

Speaker 4: 0:30

We're delighted to have. Thank you, Brian. We're delighted to have a good friend, Judge Kim White, who's a member of the Court of Appeals for the Commonwealth of Virginia. Kim, welcome.

Speaker 2: 0:43

Thank you so much. I'm happy to be with you.

Speaker 4: 0:47

Before we get into being the judge and all of those things, give us some. Our listeners would like to know where you grew up and your family and where you went to college and all those things.

Speaker 2: 1:00

Sure. So I'm a lifelong Virginian, as are my parents and grandparents. I don't know how well it goes back a long way. My father was raised in Halifax County, virginia. That's where I am now. Although I grew up all over the state because my dad was an executive with then BEPCO and Virginia Power. I went to undergraduate school at Mary Washington College and law school at Mercer University in Macon, georgia. That's the only time I've been away from Virginia for any extended period of time. I came back to, came back to Virginia, relocated in Southside, was in Lynchburg for a little bit of time. I got married about 30 years ago. My husband and I are back in Halifax County, virginia, where we've raised two children. I have an adult son who is in Raleigh, north Carolina now, and now an adult daughter who's a senior at Virginia Tech, and now an adult daughter who's a senior at Virginia Tech.

Speaker 4: 2:21

I am passionate about getting recognition to Southside Virginia and making sure everyone knows that it's paradise. Well, I have known you a long time and I'm a big fan of Halifax County and Southside Virginia in general. It's a beautiful place and if you haven't been to our listeners, you haven't been to the Cantaloupe Festival in Halifax County. I would urge you to do that. It's also the home of some interesting folks in the past. Governor Bill Tuck hailed from Halifax County. He was quite an interesting political figure in Virginia history.

Speaker 2: 2:49

Let me interrupt one second there, Carpenter.

Speaker 4: 2:51

Yes, ma'am.

Speaker 2: 2:52

Actually, in my baby book that my mother kept for me, on the inside front cover is a congratulations letter to my parents from then-Senator Tuck.

Speaker 4: 3:06

Wow, wow. Well, he was a colorful figure. I'll tell you one quick story about him. When he was governor, the story goes that it was right after World War II. So there were a lot of veterans coming into back home, either at the Broad Street Station or the Main Street Railroad Station, and two sailors were walking through Capitol Square. They saw him on a bench smoking a cigar and they went up to him. They didn't know who he was and they said sir, can you tell us where we can get a drink? He said, sure, follow me. And he took them to the mansion, the governor's mansion. That's the kind of person he was. Anyway, going back to our guest here today, kim, tell us you went to Mary Washington College for your undergraduate degree and you went, you said, to Mercer for law school. Yes, what was the tipping point for you to decide to pursue a legal profession?

Speaker 2: 4:02

So my uncle, frank Slayton, is another pretty well-known Virginian from Southside Virginia. He was my dad's older brother by 18 months and so it was a big influence in my life and he had gone to law school, he had been in the state legislature, had chaired appropriations in the House, so it was a big figure for me and it was something that I was interested in from a pretty young age and I think it also made me interested in politics as well. But the story goes when I was a senior well, junior going into senior year at Mary Washington and had decided to apply to law school, my engineer dad tried to talk me out of it. So you know, why don't you take a little bit of time off and make sure that's what you want to do? He also had always told me that my majors that I chose at Mary Washington, as he called them, were real-get-yourself-a-job major Kim, as I was a double major with English literature and American studies.

Speaker 4: 5:16

God bless you.

Speaker 2: 5:18

Yeah, so here we go. I'm thrilled to say both of my children have liberal arts educations and appear to be doing quite well.

Speaker 4: 5:26

That's wonderful. I'll tip off to the liberal arts, Brian.

Speaker 1: 5:29

Well, that was sort of my question. You had a VEPCO engineered dad and how you end up in the law profession. So you answered that. So take us on a trip down of your legal practice up until you're now on the appellate court. I mean, did you just hang out a shingle and go from there? How did that evolve?

Speaker 2: 5:45

Well, so you know I did the law firm clerkships in Atlanta, georgia, during law school summers and the like. Sadly, my father became quite ill my last year at Mercer and I just decided that Georgia was really too far from home. So I came back to Virginia and I went in law practice with my uncle, frank, and retired Judge Robert Vaughn. It had been a law firm there for a long time. So you know, small town USA, you take everything that comes in the door. So it's a great way to start practicing law because you learn a lot about a lot of areas of law. The legislature approved a public defender's office in Southside Virginia so I was hired as the first part-time public defender. So I did that as well as worked with my uncle and Judge Vaughn. That led me to a love of criminal law and so I was hired as an assistant Commonwealth's attorney in Lynchburg by the illustrious Bill Petty, who later joined the Court of Appeals of Virginia as well. And I was there and when I left I was one of the two chief deputy commonwealth attorneys in Lynchburg in charge of the violent crimes unit. I also was able to prosecute in federal court as a special assistant United States attorney. So I was exposed to the murders, the rapes, the robberies, the drugs. All of that In the interim.

Speaker 2: 7:35

My husband and I had been married. He interestingly got a job back in Halifax County, virginia, so I re-evaluated family life and the like and joined the law firm of Woods Rogers. It was then Woods Rogers and Hazel Grove, well known in Roanoke. They had a satellite office in Danville and did trial work. I did insurance defense work. I did medical malpractice defense work. It was during the early days of HIPAA, so I did HIPAA advice to hospitals and healthcare administrators and while there made partner, had my children and was on maternity leave with my daughter when I was approached by community members to possibly run for Commonwealth's attorney in Halifax. I did that while on maternity leave and was successful and ran that Commonwealth's attorney's Office. Was elected two times after that and then was named to the circuit court bench by Governor McDonnell in 2012. Became chief judge of the 10th Judicial Circuit, which is huge it's bigger than the state of Rhode Island. It's eight counties that stretch from Southside Virginia up to Central Virginia and then was elected by the legislature to the Court of Appeals in 2022.

Speaker 4: 9:26

So thank you, kim. So, talking of the Court of Appeals, which is for our listeners and the judiciary and the Commonwealth, the top court, of course, is the Supreme Court of Virginia. Now we have the Virginia Court of Appeals and then circuit courts around the Commonwealth. The Court of Appeals, in Virginia standards, is a fairly new court, isn't it? I mean, relatively speaking, it's been around for what? 30 years or 20 years.

Speaker 2: 9:57

You're showing our age when we say fairly new is in the 80s.

Speaker 2: 10:01

Yes, okay, and so it's called an intermediate appellate court. The interesting thing, though, during the 2020 legislature, when things were changing so very, very quickly, there was a huge change inate court by petition, in other words, the Court of Appeals was much like the Virginia Supreme Court and the US Supreme Court, where your appeal had to be accepted by the court. You didn't automatically get a right of appeal. Well, that changed during the 2020 legislature and changed in 2021 at the court level that we became an appeal of right. So, if you follow the procedures correctly, your appeal from the circuit courts will be heard or will be viewed by the Virginia Court of Appeals.

Speaker 2: 11:11

With that, of course, came a huge caseload increase, and it also expanded our jurisdiction. We used to just hear criminal cases, domestic cases and workers' comp and sub-administrative law type cases. Now the vast majority come through the Court of Appeals before it can ever get to a higher court. So, with the being an appeal of right court and now an expanded jurisdiction court, the legislature had to increase the number of judges, so we now are a court of 17 judges who are throughout the Commonwealth.

Speaker 1: 11:56

How does that work procedurally, I mean and I've got a follow up question to that.

Speaker 2: 12:00

So if I want to appeal to you I'm assuming most of this comes out of the circuit court docket- yes, yes, it will come out of the circuit court docket, it can also come out of the Workers Compensation Commission, and so there are rules. You have to do a notice of appeal, you have to do briefings and the like. But once all of that material gets to the clerk's office at the Court of Appeals, it will be assigned to a panel of the Court of Appeals. We mostly sit in three judge panels. We have four regions. We have Central, which is Richmond, of course. Northern, and we sit in various courthouses in the Northern part of the state, and we sit in various courthouses in the northern part of the state. Eastern, and of course that would be the Tidewater area, and then western.

Speaker 2: 12:56

And and when we sit in our three judge panels, with the exception of Richmond, we are borrowing, borrowing courtrooms from different courthouses throughout the state, from different courthouses throughout the state, which it presents a really great opportunity, I think, for citizens, for lawyers, for law students, for prospective law students, to actually come and watch arguments. Our arguments are wide open. You can come in and see and really see how an appellate court works. We do occasionally sit as a full court. That's called sitting en banc, e-n-b-a-n-c, and so for 17 of us. We used to be able to borrow the Supreme Court of Virginia courtroom to sit en banc when there were fewer of us, but now, with 17 of us, we actually sit in the Fourth Circuit Federal Court room in Richmond, which is a beautiful courtroom and is a lovely facility and, again, that's open to the public to see the full court in action.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Let me ask a follow-up question to that. So, prior to 2020, if I'm a person who feels like I haven't been treated fairly in the circuit court, did I appeal to the Virginia Supreme Court and that was? They had the right to hear the case or not?

Speaker 2: 14:18

So prior to 2020, some cases came directly to the Court of Appeals and some went to the Virginia Supreme Court. Civil cases went to the Virginia Supreme Court For example, a car accident case or a contract case but most of the criminal cases came to the Court of Appeals and you would have to do what's called a petition for appeal. You have to say, you would have to back then say to the appellate court this is a clear wrong that the court, that the lower court, committed they applied the law wrong or this law needs to be changed. And here's why and it would have to catch the ear and the eye of an appellate court judge to grant that appeal to be heard.

Speaker 1: 15:08

One last question on that. So it wasn't how many judges were on the appeals court then. Not 17, I presume.

Speaker 2: 15:13

No, no, no, there were 11 at the time.

Speaker 1: 15:16

Okay, and it was. Was it based on region two back then?

Speaker 2: 15:20

Well, it was supposed to be when it was originally formed, but that had not, that really had not been honored over the years. Anyone who follows the legislature knows that lots of considerations go into the election of appellate court judges, and, and and sometimes geography wasn't part of that consideration.

Speaker 1: 15:50

So they tend to be concentrated in certain areas.

Speaker 2: 15:53

It did. It did With the expansion of the Court of Appeals. I really think the legislature has tried very hard to expand not only geography but also areas of practice there. For a long time was was criticism that there were a lot more prosecutors put on the appellate courts and you know, for the Court of Appeals, arguably prosecutors and public defenders at the time were probably exceedingly well qualified because it handled such a heavy criminal docket. Now it's a court of general jurisdiction, so it's everything and I do think with the expansion that the legislature has done a really good job of expanding the geography representation as well as the practice representation.

Speaker 4: 16:48

But the Supreme Court Kim oversees all the courts of the Commonwealth, correct?

Speaker 2: 16:54

They do, they do, and, but for the most part their appeals usually come through our court.

Speaker 4: 17:04

And since the Court of Appeals was created in the 80s I've never thought about this until now. Your court. I assume there's got to be a fair amount of judges on the Court of Appeals that have moved up to the Supreme Court of Virginia. That is true.

Speaker 2: 17:26

There certainly are. So when I went on the Court of Appeals, I was not one of the judges appointed during the what we call the, the great expansion. I was the next judge after that big group and my position was created because a court of appeals judge Justice Russell went to the went to the Supreme Court went to the Supreme Court.

Speaker 4: 17:48

This is an observation. Just as the three of us are native Virginians, I think we have, and I'm not an attorney, but just as a layman, I feel like we have one of the better court systems of states in this country and I thank God our judges are not elected. I just think that, to me, politicizes an area of government that needs to be not politicized. I don't know, kim, if you're able to discuss that, and I guess in North Carolina, for example, they elect their judges. Is that correct?

Speaker 2: 18:23

They do.

Speaker 2: 18:24

And, interestingly, I was just at a week-long course up at NYU for appellate court judges and there were judges from all over the country, I should say all over the world.

Speaker 2: 18:36

We had someone actually from Korea there as well and we had some informal discussions about the process. And Virginia is very unique in the fact that we don't have elected judges. Now, that's not to say that we don't have Some politics play into it, and mostly it's in just who you're familiar with, because you certainly have to have to know who to talk to if it's something you want to do or if it's something you're being encouraged to do, in sitting down with the legislators and selling yourself in some degree and in answering their questions. But no, I think, even given that amount of the politicization of it in Virginia, that we still have an incredible judiciary, from district court judges who are J and D court judges, juvenile court, who are the hardest working judges in the Commonwealth. I'm telling you all the way to the Virginia Supreme Court. Our legislature wants to get it right. They take it exceedingly seriously and, yeah, I'm like you all. I think we have the best system out there.

Speaker 1: 20:02

Well, I've lived in other states and almost every state I've lived in they have elected judges, which is weird, I think, when you've lived at a place where it's not and you see people you know hustling for votes at the county fair and you realize well, they might have thrown this guy in jail or something. It just seemed to me to be an inherent conflict of interest. But you said you were elected by the General Assembly. So how does that occur and how long is your term?

Speaker 2: 20:23

Okay, so all judges are elected by the General Assembly. Your name actually ends up on one of the bills that they are voting on on the floor of the General Assembly. The courts committees individually House courts and Senate courts I say individually, sometimes they meet together will in effect screen those candidates for the various positions throughout the state. If it's a local position, the wishes and desires of the local legislators carry a great deal of weight with the court's committees and the legislators. If it's a statewide position, like the Court of Appeals or like the Virginia Supreme Court you know a lot of, there's a lot of influence there. The Virginia State Bar Committee reviews candidates, virginia Bar Association, old Dominion Bar Association, virginia Women's Attorneys Association and the Hispanic Bar Association A number of the different bar associations will weigh in, but the courts committees will certify the various candidates as qualified. You have to be certified by the courts committee, by rules of the legislator to end up on the bill to be elected on the floor.

Speaker 1: 21:57

Well, you don't have to comment on this if you don't want to, I guess. But it just seems to me, cartha and I talk about this all the time the politicization of that's a hard word to say, by the way of everything. It just seems like we're bifurcated in everything we do now, but we both follow the General Assembly and I just can't think of a controversial judicial topic in recent memory or beyond that, so it's pretty bipartisan topic in recent memory or beyond that, so it's pretty bipartisan. So whatever partisanship there is in the General Assembly historically seems to stop at that door where the judges are.

Speaker 4: 22:27

Well, I think you're right for the most part. In recent, I know, during the McAuliffe administration, he the General Assembly was out of session. There was a vacancy, as I recall, in the Supreme Court obsession. There was a vacancy, as I recall, in the Supreme Court. He selected a candidate and then the General Assembly, in Republican hands, did not confirm that justice and so that person did not serve after they had their say in it. Is that unusual? Yes, kim, is that correct? Yes, yeah.

Speaker 2: 22:59

Kim. Is that correct? Certainly. I mean there are some stories out there about some politics playing more in some selections than others, but the vast majority of the time, um, there's give and take, there are um discussions among the the legislators, um among the different courts committees, um phone calls are made, letters are. However it works, it does work. But yeah, it's not. I certainly don't think it's as nasty as you see in other places to the judicial evaluations that have come into play over the last decade or so, where judges are periodically reviewed by lawyers, by jury members, and those results go to the General Assembly. But for the most part, I think, in the world of we judges, those evaluations are used for basically self-reflections, self-improvement, and very, very occasionally will they be used as a sword, I guess, by a legislator to remove a judge. But for the for the most part it is a up and up process, I think.

Speaker 1: 24:54

Is there still the thing called jerk to a judicial and career review?

Speaker 2: 24:57

Absolutely, yeah, absolutely to a judicial and career review. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely. And again, they are a great. It's funny to hear a judge say this. They are a great organization and an incredible resource for judges. If there is some sort of potential ethical issue that a Virginia judge sees coming or has a question about, can I do that, or should I do this, or how do I handle this situation? The staff at the Judicial Inquiry and Review Commission are a phone call away and they are exceedingly helpful, and you know, the flip side of what that commission does is if there is a judge who has stepped across the line or has some behavior that needs to be addressed, they're there to address the concerns of lawyers and citizens as well.

Speaker 1: 26:02

Well, one last question how long is your term for then? So is it for a set period of time?

Speaker 2: 26:06

Yeah, it is. I have an eight-year term. I also had an eight-year term as a circuit court judge.

Speaker 1: 26:12

And you're eligible for reappointment. So you just get reviewed at the end of the eight years.

Speaker 2: 26:16

Yes you do yes.

Speaker 4: 26:19

And the Supreme Court is a 12-year term, correct?

Speaker 2: 26:22

that's correct and the chief justice, yeah unlike, unlike, unlike the united states supreme court um there are no lifetime terms right and the chief justice, uh, I guess, has picked governors. No, the chief justice, as well as the chief judge, chief justice of the Virginia Supreme Court, the chief judge of the Court of Appeals of Virginia are actually elected by his or her fellow judges.

Speaker 4: 26:56

Fellow judges Okay.

Speaker 1: 27:07

This is a regular civics lesson today, but the funny thing, judge, is that most people fortunately, we don't come into contact with the court system that much, but I do feel that a lot of people just don't understand the differences between the federal courts and the state courts and how people get appointed. So this has been helpful to me and hopefully will be helpful to our listeners. So how far are you along in your eight-year term now?

Speaker 2: 27:25

So in July 1, I began my third-year term my third year.

Speaker 4: 27:29

Great Ken. This just occurred to me. I hadn't thought about this until today. If a party goes before the state corporation, commission and the party, whatever the party is asking the commission to do, and the commission doesn't agree with the party's position, can that party go to the Court of Appeals of Virginia? Or is SEC in those matters, which is a regulatory agency of the Commonwealth that regulates public utilities? What other besides public utilities, what other regulatory reach do they have? And so is there a path for a party to go to a virginia court if they don't like what the sec has agreed to?

Speaker 2: 28:28

or um, yes, so, um, I'm just, I always have to look these up. Um, they go to the, so state corporation commission goes to the Supreme Court of Virginia and, again, there are very stringent rules about taking any cases to appellate courts, whether it be from a circuit court, workers' comp, state corporation commission, that are not in it. If I can give one little piece of advice to our citizens and litigants out there, don't try to do it by yourself. It's very, very rule-specific, rule-oriented, and the rules are found not only in the Code of Virginia but also in what's called the Rules of the Supreme Court of Virginia, which is Volume 11 of the Code of Virginia. Yeah, yeah, see so, and I'm telling you I still, even as long as I have been practicing law, I've been a trial court judge and now an appellate court judge. You know I'm still forever looking up the specific rules every day.

Speaker 4: 29:46

So a party that goes before the state corporation commission let's just use Dominion Energy which I'm sure are frequently before the commission. So they they do have an appeal opportunity. If certain rules are met. They could in theory go to the Supreme Court of Virginia to try to have a different outcome on a decision.

Speaker 2: 30:14

I will preface that by saying provided certain rules are met and also provided it deals with certain issues. Again, that is not, that's not in in in in my wheel, that's, that's not something that that I do. So I mean, I, you know, I hesitate to to tell you, yes, they can always do it because I'm quite sure. No, they can't always do it, but certain issues are appealable, as I understand it, to the Supreme Court.

Speaker 1: 30:49

I see I'm sorry you're having to go through all this questioning, but both of us were fans of the movie the Paper Chase. So Carthen is pretending he's Professor Kingsfield, questioning the 3L on constitutional law. What's the percentage of cases that you hear in the appeals court that are civil versus criminal Roughly? I mean just roughly.

Speaker 2: 31:11

OK. So I wish I had those numbers right in front of me, because I know that we have those numbers, those numbers, but just anecdotally, the vast majority of what we hear are criminal cases. When the jurisdiction of the court was expanded, we really anticipated this huge onslaught of civil cases, and we certainly have. We we certainly have more because we didn't have them before. So that makes sense. But it wasn't the huge onslaught that we were expecting.

Speaker 2: 31:48

Um, and to be honest and I don't know this to be true but my thought has been that now, on some of these civil cases, that civil attorneys because often we're dealing with really, really big dollars there that civil attorneys are understanding that in order to get a final resolution of a civil case, they now have an extra step in the process. They have to come through the Court of Appeals of Virginia, Then they might have to go through an en banc proceeding of the Court of Appeals of Virginia and then they might have to go to the Virginia Supreme Court. So those are more steps than they used to have. They used to just, if they didn't like what happened in the circuit court level, they would go to the Virginia Supreme Court. So my bet is that there's some post-circuit court hearings, circuit court hearings, verdicts now being negotiated, likely by these civil lawyers, and they're coming up with some sort of resolution instead of seeking the appellate court avenues.

Speaker 1: 33:09

One other question. This is a decorum question Are the parties at the appellate appeal? Are your court often in person, like they'd have been at the circuit court, Are they? So they tend to be in the room in the courtroom.

Speaker 2: 33:20

Yes, they are in the courtroom. So certainly during covid the, the appellate courts, you know, they still had cases they had to hear. They do have a very sophisticated and secure video argument system. For the most part in the Court of Appeals we use that if, for some reason, a case has to get continued from the original appellate court trial date. Continued from the original appellate court trial date. Um, because, as I told you before, we sit in panels of three judges and so I'll sit, like last week out. Well, earlier this week in fact, I was with two colleagues in Richmond, um in um uh. Another month I will be with two different colleagues in another part of the state. So being able to get on the calendar of those same three judges in person is next to impossible if the case gets continued. So we then will hear that by video argument, but the vast majority of what we do is live in person.

Speaker 1: 34:33

That was my last question. I just thought, since there's 17 of you geographically dispersed, that the same three of you were always working the same cases in the same region. So what you're saying is that that's not the case.

Speaker 2: 34:43

You get mixed up, no no, and here you know, before I went on the court, I truly thought our chief judge individually assigned the judges to different panels. I thought, oh my goodness, what power that is. Because, you know, we all have different personalities, we all have different experiences and different backgrounds. So I love telling this story because I think that it ought to give lawyers and litigants and our citizens such confidence in the appellate court system at the court of appeals level. So in fact, we've just gone through this process for 2025. Judges will submit what a void time we need to submit for a family vacation or the like, and we submit that to the court. The court gives that information, gives the seniority information to VCU, virginia Commonwealth University, and there is a computer system at VCU that randomly assigns the three judges to the different jurisdictions in the Commonwealth and, with the thought that, okay, more senior judges get their priority for their avoid dates, the every judge has to sit in every region at least once during the year. So it's completely and totally random.

Speaker 1: 36:21

That's crazy, that's insanely interesting. So you spent some time in hotels. Then, right, I mean, so you're not always. Yeah, you're on the road again.

Speaker 4: 36:29

Like Willie Nelson, I think the fact that they do travel, that the Court of Appeals travels through other parts of the Commonwealth, also allows citizens to be more.

Speaker 1: 36:38

Well, it also to me. It also kind of there tends to be regional interest, right. I mean. So if you're from Halifax, you're kind of in the bag for not that you'd be in the bag for anything, but in other words, it does sort of give you different geographic diversity. So you're all thrown together down in Tidewater. But you're not looking at it from a Tidewater perspective, You're looking at it from a Virginia perspective. It sounds like a good system, like everything in Virginia.

Speaker 2: 37:01

It sounds like it's working pretty good. Well, I think that you get panels who are so very diverse. This week I was on a panel with our Chief Judge, marla Decker, who came through the Attorney General's office and she was our Secretary of Public Safety, who brings a vast, vast, incredible background. I was on the panel with Stuart Raphael, who is a brilliant judge, a brilliant lawyer, tried very high profile cases, was our solicitor general of Virginia, of Virginia, and then they had me, who you've heard my background, but I was the only trial court judge on that panel. So you get that diverse, that diversity of experience.

Speaker 2: 38:06

I will be on a panel and we can't. I can't tell you what panels I have coming up because that's held closely to the vest, but I will be on a panel within the next couple of months where all three of us have been trial court judges, but we come from three different regions of the Commonwealth and have different areas of practice of law that we had, practice of law that we had. So, yeah, I think that it is just a wonderful way to bring a different eye to all of the different cases. The Court of Appeals is actually on our website. It's V, as in Virginia, a courts with an S dot gov and you can look up the courts. You can look at Court of Appeals and you can look up there to see what the upcoming dockets are and where we will be sitting, and people are encouraged to come and watch.

Speaker 1: 39:13

Yeah, I think I'm going to go to the one in Richmond at the Fourth Circuit when it's there we can do a podcast in one of these courts afterwards.

Speaker 4: 39:20

It's like sportscasters.

Speaker 1: 39:21

We can break it all down for our listeners. Let me ask a question. Yeah, we're going to wrap up here, but go ahead. You go and then I'll ask and you get the last question.

Speaker 4: 39:30

Okay, well, a couple of questions. Kim does the.

Speaker 2: 39:44

Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court? Do you have like a term like the US Supreme Court, where they basically take the summer off? You know, years ago apparently, the Court of Appeals did that. I'm telling you we don't now. You know, like I said, I was on a panel earlier this month. We had en banc at the end of July. Let's see, I had panel in June, july for me, three judge panels this year. Fortunately I did not have one because I had my family vacation. Did not have one because I had my family vacation. But yeah, no, we don't have terms. We sit throughout the year. All year, every year, I've had a panel in December, so yeah, no rest for the weary.

Speaker 4: 40:29

No rest for the weary. Does the Supreme Court of Virginia ever? They always sit in Richmond. They do, okay, and well, that's go ahead, mark.

Speaker 1: 40:40

They have their own space, right?

Speaker 4: 40:41

Yes, they have their own. Yes, and I want will be our question Kim, you could give us an update on the there is a new Supreme Court of Virginia courthouse will be built. As I understand it, where that stands. They'll vacate their current location, which is where the old Federal Reserve building right behind St Paul's Episcopal Church.

Speaker 2: 41:08

Yeah, it's between 8th and 9th Street. Yeah, right there at St Paul's, across the street from Capitol Square. So the and we have a very, very, very, very small three panel courtroom in that building as well, and then, in the Court of Appeals judges who are located in Richmond, their chambers are in Richmond in that building. So, um, yeah, the, um, the plan is to take the, isn't it, wasn't it the Pocahontas building right now?

Speaker 4: 41:46

Yes, correct.

Speaker 2: 41:47

The general assembly was temporarily housed. That building um is going to be the new, not that building, but that location is going to be the new location of the Supreme Court and the Court of Appeals will be in that, and we are probably five years or more down the road. I hope to see it by the end of this term, but there are really really some exciting plans for it. There are already talks about how to ensure that the Court of Appeals, now that we're a 17-court judge court, that we have our own courtroom for en banc hearings and that we have sufficient space should there be a time that the Court of Appeals or the Supreme Court, that there's a sufficient space to grow if that happens, because you know, this is an awful lot of taxpayer money, an awful lot of effort, and we want to ensure that it in fact is a 50 or 100 year building that we can use.

Speaker 2: 43:09

I'm exceedingly impressed by the new General Assembly building. I think they did a marvelous job. It is so welcoming, lots of public space there. Again, I'm just one of these. I love public involvement. Please, if you've not been to see the new General Assembly's building, go. The committee rooms are incredible. In fact, the Court of Appeals used one of the committee rooms in July for their en banc hearing and I think that went exceedingly well.

Speaker 1: 43:42

Well, so this has been terrific. I'm going to. This is my last question. Carthen will get the last one. I'm sure he'll come up with something. Professor, take us back to Mary Washington with your dad and you're going to Mercer and you know, did you ever think? I mean you've had a pretty cool legal career? Is this the way you thought it was going to go? Or looking back on it, do you? Have any regrets, or how do you feel about you know, reflecting on your career?

Speaker 2: 44:06

I have absolutely zero regrets. I'm going to take it back to where I started when I told you I was an English major, with another major in American Studies, my law clerks. To think that I can research Virginia law, that I can have writings that will be studied in history about Virginia law, is just an amazing way to close out my practice. This job is such a rewarding job and I am thankful to God. I'm thankful to my family, to my colleagues on the court, to those who have mentored me, to my friends. Um, um, I, um thanked really every, every category of person along the way. Um I I quoted a song from the Wicked Broadway play um, uh to to thank them. Um, so, yeah, no, no regrets.

Speaker 1: 45:33

What's the what's the quote from Wicked? What is the quote?

Speaker 2: 45:45

Oh, it was just. Yeah, you just put me on the spot. Now I've got to think of exactly what it was, but it was just about how you were there along the way and showed me the best that I could be. And you know, it was a song between Elphaba and Galinda.

Speaker 1: 46:04

Nice.

Speaker 2: 46:07

So now you know, I'm a musical theater nerd.

Speaker 1: 46:10

In addition to being an English major right. Well, that's right, I guess you've proven that it's not just George Bailey who can have a wonderful life, that you've had a wonderful legal and personal life. So thank you, Carthen.

Speaker 4: 46:20

So the judge is a music critic as well, you said regrets.

Speaker 1: 46:23

You didn't regret mentioning Carthen as a 30-year friend.

Speaker 4: 46:26

That's right, that's right, we'll leave that alone. All right, go ahead. In a nutshell, in your career in the judiciary of Virginia, what's been the most dramatic thing that has changed from the time that you started as a Commonwealth attorney and now a member of the Virginia Court of Appeals?

Speaker 2: 46:52

Gosh, gosh, um. So for me, career-wise, you know you, you go from, no matter what type of attorney you are. You go from being an advocate for your client or for your client's position. Sometimes that's hard for the public to understand. You know how can you represent somebody clearly guilty, and you know we can get into all of that and that would take yet another hour.

Speaker 2: 47:26

But I think being able to see the legal system from that side and now to see it from, I guess, on high, it is absolutely amazing to me that we all have a role to play in this system we call justice. We have to make sure that people's rights are honored, that people's voices are heard, and really every single person in the system has a role in that. And I think you said what's been the most dramatic change. The most dramatic change, I guess the change is now how I can see it above and I can see just what important roles everyone has in that. Whether you are a brand spanking new lawyer, whether you are law enforcement, whether you are an advocate in a advocacy group, whether you are a clerk of court or a bailiff, the system only works as long as we are all doing our best for that little component that we have in the system.

Speaker 4: 48:45

Well said, Judge. Thank you so much, Brian.

Speaker 1: 48:47

Your Honor. Thank you, it has been an honor, your Honor, to have you here today. Thank you for being with us.

Speaker 4: 48:53

And we look forward to having you back.

Speaker 2: 48:56

Thank you so much. I greatly appreciate it.

Speaker 1: 48:59

Thank you for listening to the Virginians of Interest podcast. If you like what you've heard today, please like, subscribe and share our podcast.

Speaker 3: 49:06

Thank you for listening to the Virginians of Interest podcast. To hear other episodes of this podcast, head to virginiansofinterestcom.