Speaker 2: 0:12

And now from the Blue Ridge PBS studios in Roanoke, virginia. It's the Virginians of Interest podcast, with your hosts Brian Campbell and Karthan Curran.

Speaker 1: 0:22

Thank you for joining the Virginians of Interest podcast. I'm going to turn today's introduction over to my friend Karthan Curran.

Speaker 3: 0:28

Thank, you, brian. Today we have and for me it's a special, just an incredible treat to have my dear friend Todd Jackson with us. Todd is a longtime reporter with the Road Note Times. We've known each other now for probably 25 years. Once upon a time he actually covered me on a couple of stories. But, todd, welcome If you could tell us, tell our listeners, a little bit about where you grew up and you went to Virginia Tech and then how you ended up in Roanoke with the Roanoke Times. Sure.

Speaker 4: 1:01

I'm happy to be here this morning. I was born in Bristol, lived my whole life in southwest Virginia.

Speaker 3: 1:09

Bristol Virginia, not Tennessee. Bristol Virginia, not Tennessee. Bristol Virginia, not Tennessee.

Speaker 4: 1:13

Yes, that is important to have a distinction on yes.

Speaker 4: 1:18

And then I went to Virginia Tech where I studied communications, walked out of Virginia Tech and about a week later I started in the journalism business at a small paper that's still alive.

Speaker 4: 1:31

Later I started in the journalism business at a small paper that's still alive, the News Messenger in Montgomery County, and I toiled away there for three years, learned a lot of things the hard way and then finally got a big break, broke a big story, and Runnick Times, who I'd been bothering for quite a while, finally hired me. So I worked at the Roanoke Times as a reporter for about 15 years, covered Franklin County that's, of course, where I met you and then I covered Roanoke City Hall and federal and state government for well over a decade, spent some time on Capitol Hill, spent some time covering the state legislature, covered all kinds of Roanoke City Council battles when there were a lot of characters on the council. Then, in 2007, I finally bit the bullet and became an editor. Been an editor since then. So I manage the reporters and we talk about stories and get them done still. And so I've been the Metro editor at the paper for about 11 years now 11, 12. I'm starting my 31st year at the paper.

Speaker 3: 2:45

This year I have to ask you, Todd, because you're just well, I'm biased. I just think you're one of the best I've ever known as far as a reporter. Do you miss the beat, Do you?

Speaker 4: 2:57

miss. Sometimes, and it's funny, the last few years it's really kind of come back to me and sometimes I still get the itch to want to go do it, and who knows what life brings.

Speaker 1: 3:15

I may do that again at some point. Help me understand. The only thing I know about journalism is we talked to Dwayne Nancy on a podcast earlier and also what I say in television. So, particularly now, as an editor, how often do you meet with your reporters and is it in a group setting? And how do you determine what gets on in the paper? And then also, we use the word editor broadly here. So then you're not actually you're not the person that then goes back and edits their work, are you?

Speaker 4: 3:36

Yes, I do edit the work. We meet. I talk to reporters every day. We meet every day in some fashion, whether it's our regular news meetings or, you know, zoom, or phone call or text or email. It's constant and you know I enjoy that part of it and I still enjoy talking stories, figuring out stories, coaching and teaching. I mean I think it's really important in this day and time that people who have done this for years continue to teach and coach the younger generation on what journalism really is. I mean, we could probably sit here and all day and talk about that issue.

Speaker 4: 4:23

But how do stories get in paper? You know, reporters cover beats. Obviously. Obviously, we get tips from the public, so there's always a discussion about priorities what story is the most important, how reporters should spend their time, and then, of course, we and daily we have discussions. Okay, this is what's going in tomorrow's paper. You know this is a story you ought to work on for another week and we'll run it this day and that kind of thing. But that more than ever, you know, it's a lot different now than when I started as far as that process goes. There's a lot more flexibility, there's a lot more give and take on. You know, don't work on this today. Work on this instead.

Speaker 1: 5:07

Yeah Well, two questions related to that. One is is it harder to recruit people to be in journalism today, particularly in print old school journalism? I?

Speaker 4: 5:15

mean, obviously I think it is. I mean we still and we have some really good younger reporters now, but it's a little bit harder to when we have a opening, to find somebody who you know really wants to be in journalism and do you know what's necessary to do the job in the right way? Yeah, so yeah.

Speaker 1: 5:40

Well, the other question I had for you is it sounds like to me, you know, it's the worst case scenario of being in school, meaning you have a deadline every day. You've got to write a term paper every day, so isn't that also to help drive the story? So not only do you have to identify the story, the story has to be curated Absolutely. Edited yes. And then released under some time constraints, correct?

Speaker 4: 5:59

Yeah, and what's interesting, you know, when I met Carth and was covering Franklin County back in that day, you know there was no internet per se. I think it had started, but people didn't have websites and there wasn't the basically instantaneous news cycle that you have today. So it's hard because we still have a print product and a daily deadline, but we also have pressure to get stuff up online immediately. So so there's always a conversation about, you know, should we just go ahead and get this up today? And obviously breaking news is different than an enterprise story or an investigative story but there's always a conversation about when do we post this? And I mean most of the time these days you post it immediately. And I mean most of the time these days you post it immediately. But there's also strategic decisions that go into stories that we know we're going to break versus stories that we know the competitors are doing.

Speaker 3: 6:57

Yeah, carlton, speaking of Franklin County, I've just been the political climate then and probably throughout rural Virginia. It was principally still the Democrats were in control, and then the emergence of the Republican Party in rural Virginia started. I became the chairman of the Republican Party. Todd covered my various ups and downs, we're going to get into some of that.

Speaker 3: 7:40

But I think about it now. I think every constitutional officer in Franklin County, the whole legislative delegation are all Republicans. Franklin County, the whole legislative delegation, are all Republicans. So it's an interesting aspect of the political climate how that's changed over a period of time. But, Todd, you want to talk about some of our?

Speaker 4: 8:02

Yeah, and I mean and I think about your situation, the time when you were chairman of the party and there was a meeting you were up to be re-nominated as the chair and then the infamous proxy night where your opponent that you didn't even know about brought people, brought proxy votes, into the meeting and he was obviously farther right than you and he was obviously farther right than you. And back at that time I remember what a big deal it was because it was kind of an outlier. It was like what the heck's going on with this kind of thing. And of course your situation had more to do with the politics because there was the proxy situation and whether that was proper or not. But I remember thinking you know, this is just kind of weird because you know, I think everybody was generally happy with the way you were doing the job and where you stood politically within the party, and then you had this movement from the far right.

Speaker 4: 9:02

But you know, now this happens every day pretty much in this country. It's just become the norm. I mean you look at the 5th District congressional situation right now as a good example. I mean it's just become the way things are and looking back on that now, it's just strange to think that might, and I mean, and you said you had the same situation in Charlottesville, so obviously that's. But I wonder, you know, I don't think that was the norm then and to see where it's gone now in the politics that exist, it's just night and day.

Speaker 3: 9:36

What year was this? By the way, this would have been 96,.

Speaker 3: 9:40

I think, I had become chairman around well when George Allen was running for governor, so that was 93, and I was chairman then and I think this attempted coup, if you want to use that phrase, was also being driven by the fact that those folks wanted to get John Warner when Oliver North ran for the United States Senate. Famously, the senior Republican United States senator from Virginia did not support Oliver North for the general election. In fact John Warner helped recruit former Attorney General, republican Attorney General Marshall Coleman, to run as an independent that's right Against Oliver North and of course Chuck Robb was the incumbent senator that North was trying to knock out. In any event, in 96, when Warner was up, there was a lot of Republicans that were still very angry at him and I supported Senator Warner and I think some of what was driving the Randy Huckaba that now wing of the party was because I was a Warner person.

Speaker 1: 10:51

But anyway, well, let me just interject real quick because I wasn't there for y'all's situation. But I was listening to somebody the other day talking about our national scene and they were talking about well, you have to follow the Constitution this person brought up. There is no mention of the Republican or the Democratic Party in the Constitution that these are. Basically they follow party rules. So they're a little, and I presume the Democrats have these same issues. But I remember back then, particularly in the Republican Party, that it was everybody had to be an expert on Robert's Rules of Order, because you went into every meeting assuming it was going to be hand-to-hand combat on procedural stuff, which was kind of interesting.

Speaker 3: 11:27

But it's also the best way to essentially take over a party and I, you know we had not. I mean, as Todd mentioned, when I started the party, when George Allen ran for governor, it was a landslide and Alan Dudley, who I helped recruit as a candidate for the House of Delegates, was elected. He was the first Republican elected in over a quarter of a century in Franklin County and he stayed in the House for 12 years. But it was more of a family. People weren't all tied up with procedure.

Speaker 4: 11:59

We were just yeah. And I mean that's what astounds me kind of about where we're at now, because I remember you know you had friends on the Democratic side too, you know, like the sheriff. Oh yeah, there were elected Democrats, but there was no animosity, no, and people were working together, right.

Speaker 3: 12:21

In fact the Democratic chair of the county. After what happened to me at that mass meeting which you covered, he happened to be an attorney and we're still good friends. Eric Ferguson called me up the next morning and said I know this is strange, but if I can be of any help to you I want you to know you can call me. I remember you telling me that.

Speaker 4: 12:40

But you know, looking back on that now and it does make a lot of sense to me now when I started thinking about this, I remember that meeting at the steakhouse and Bill Davis was there on your behalf. Oh, my gosh, and then your opponent had a couple of Roanoke-based attorneys, right, but I remember what a knockdown dragout that was, literally, and I remember thinking, wow, bill Davis threw a table down.

Speaker 1: 13:07

Because I'm like listeners, I'm not completely following this. This steakhouse meeting was this before or after you announced it? It was after. So then this meeting was to get together to sort of discuss the legal option.

Speaker 3: 13:19

Yes, so after the dust settled after that night, I went to my good friend Clyde Perdue, who was a Republican attorney in Rocky Mountain, and Bill Davis, who had been a long time. Both families had been long-time activists in the Republican Party in Franklin County and they both agreed to help me fight this inappropriate use of proxies. To ask me and ultimately Todd covered every aspect of this it went to various committees, it went to the 5th District and then finally the Republican Party of Virginia State Central Committee unanimously voted to reinstate me.

Speaker 1: 14:00

So also just to understand, proxy what has been, I show up that night with myself plus the votes of three other people who are not there. Correct, yes, and the rules did not allow that.

Speaker 3: 14:10

Correct, it's a mass meeting. One vote, one person.

Speaker 4: 14:15

And honestly I didn't know it was. That was the first time I'd ever seen it, as a reporter at the time. I've not seen it since. I mean. I'm sure it's happened, but around here I've never heard of it again, Right?

Speaker 3: 14:32

So I had some famous speaking of you and I were talking about Chris LaCivita, who's now president, I mean former President Trump's co-campaign manager. He was working for the state party then and some of my quotes at the Rondo Times. There was one about a king, I think there was one about a king I quoted Senator Andrews about. If you're going to kill the king, if you're going to try to kill the king, you better make sure you kill him. And then there was one that really got Lasavita stirred up. He called me up and said you can't stop talking to the press and I won't say what I told him about, what I thought about those people, but I said they came to the mass meeting with a Bible in one hand and a knife in the other.

Speaker 1: 15:07

But was that mass meeting?

Speaker 3: 15:08

with a Bible in one hand and a knife in the other.

Speaker 1: 15:11

So and Was that off the top of your head or had you thought about that? I don't know. I was fired up.

Speaker 4: 15:16

I was enjoying those days, believe me.

Speaker 3: 15:19

Todd would just call me up. I was fired up. I was.

Speaker 1: 15:22

It probably helped sell newspapers right. It was a bit of a soap opera, so that helped people who were following us.

Speaker 4: 15:27

Yeah, but that brings up another point. You know Carthen was open with the situation and I think the coverage of it you know that's what led it helped lead it at least to the conclusion that occurred because it was open, it wasn't being done behind the scenes, and so much these days it's not like it used to be. I don't think the same thing would happen today. As far as the coverage of it, people wouldn't talk. I mean, I was allowed into that steakhouse meeting. Now y'all went back behind closed the infamous steakhouse partition at one point. But I was there, I was allowed in there. I bet you, these days reporters wouldn't even. They wouldn't even be told about the meeting.

Speaker 3: 16:15

To start with, this was the Golden Corral, which has now been torn down, I think. After that meeting, yeah, and then there was another great, I am proud of this, and it really did stir the Democrats up. Alan Dudley was running for re-election for the House of Delegates and that same year so was then State Senator Virgil Goode. So Virgil was a good friend and good friend of Allen. He and Allen were high school classmates at Franklin County High School. Virgil was a Democrat then Allen's a Republican. So my father and I had a billboard company and we had five billboard company and we had five billboard sites on US 220, and we had a site, as all those folks from Franklin County that would go to Runnick every morning to go to work. It was this perfect site. So I asked this gentleman if he would pay me cash. I asked Virgil if I put you and Alan Dudley up elect Virgil Goode, elect Alan Dudley, now more than ever, which was Richard Nixon's 72 re-election campaign slogan. So Virgil said yes, put it up.

Speaker 1: 17:25

Well, let me get this straight.

Speaker 3: 17:26

So it's a Republican and a Democrat on the same billboard Exactly, and it almost looks like they're running as a ticket. Wow, and he put that up there. Todd covered that story. It was a beautiful picture. I think it made the front page of the Roundup Times, that picture of that billboard. Oh my goodness, the Democrats went nuts, so I don't know what Virgil told them, but anyway, it was a lot of fun. Great time We've tried to make a difference. We also are having fun at it at the same time.

Speaker 1: 18:03

Well, part of it. I mean, this is an interesting trip down memory lane, but it also does tee up this idea of how things have gotten so bad now and Virgil's been on the show and I actually remember asking him at the end isn't it so bad? Are you discouraging people from getting involved and Virgil's like.

Speaker 1: 18:18

oh no, quite the opposite. I'm encouraging people to get involved and to try to see the goodness out of all of it, but hasn't journalism fundamentally changed too? I mean, another thing that Dwayne talked about on his pod was this idea of how many people used to cover state government versus how many people cover it now. It's a fraction of what used to happen. It's terrible.

Speaker 4: 18:37

Absolutely. I mean one of the problems that I see obviously we have less numbers. And when I started at the Renwick Times and Dwayne was there then too, and at one point Dwayne was on, he was the editor of the political team I was on and we did so much back then. But back when I started, the Roanoke Times had someone at every meeting, at every function, and that doesn't go on anymore and it creates two problems and I've seen this and it happens all the time, because some of these bodies don't get coverage. They sit there and they never have it. So when you actually do it, they get defensive. It's almost like why are you here? And it's a public meeting? I mean that's what gets me. And then at the same time I mean I'm sure there are things that happen in some of these meetings that we never hear about, that are newsworthy. Yeah, that we're not going to cover and that's problematic. And I just see it kind of.

Speaker 4: 19:38

And it's not every politician. I mean I'm not going to stereotype them all, but there's a difference in kind of the mindset of of a lot of elected bodies as to what the media is and what its responsibility is. I mean Carth and I have talked about this over the years. I mean I'm a big believer in the fourth estate. I mean I think you know it's as important to this country as anything as far as our democratic system. But has it changed? Absolutely, absolutely, and it's it's hard to say that there's anything about it that's for the better. Maybe there is. I mean, obviously you have a lot of bloggers, you have you know, social media.

Speaker 4: 20:25

That's out there and a lot of times that fills that void, but certainly not all the time.

Speaker 1: 20:32

Well, let me ask you and I would think I've never met you before until today you don't look like an unreasonable person. You sound like a reasonable person, Wasn't?

Speaker 1: 20:40

part of this too, the idea that we've sort of demonized the press, that you have a distinct political agenda, and look, I know that there are plenty of people in journalism and in the press that do have agendas, but I think that's a broad brush, I mean. So I mean, have you also seen that over the years too, particularly when you're covering a political story, that people you walk into the room and people are making more assumptions about you than they may have made 25 years ago?

Speaker 4: 21:05

100 percent and it's worse now than it's ever been. And you know another thing that bothers me we have all kinds of politicians who won't even talk to our reporters. And you know I think about in my political coverage, when I was a reporter, there were plenty of politicians who got mad at me for things I wrote. But there wasn't, I couldn't tell you, one who wouldn't talk to me still, because they knew I was just doing my job. And you know, as long as you tell the truth, I mean, people might not like it but they'll get over it eventually and they'll know.

Speaker 4: 21:38

Well, you know, he had to do what he had to do and that's not the way it is anymore. I mean, there are a lot of politicians who just simply won't even take our phone call, won't even. I mean, and sometimes it's just the Roanoke Times and their opinion of us, but a I mean sometimes it's just the Roanoke Times and their opinion of us, but a lot of times it's the media in general they're just not going to talk to a reporter. And these are elected representatives.

Speaker 1: 21:59

Right, right, and so their alternative is social media, right? So is that? Probably they're saying look, whatever it is I've got to say I will distribute it through the channels that I believe in?

Speaker 4: 22:09

Yes, and that's what they do, and a lot of times, what they're putting out there is not even close to what the truth is.

Speaker 3: 22:13

Well, that's discouraging to me because of course we're good friends, but you always covered. In my view, you were straight up, you reported the facts and I think people for the most part in Franklin County really I know they were a lot of folks were sad when you left, when you went back to cover.

Speaker 1: 22:38

Well, I didn't the stuff I experienced in Charlottesville wasn't nearly as fiery as you guys were, but I always viewed it as three legs of a stool the Republicans, the Democrats and the media Back then, because there wasn't an alternative to the media. It was print, radio and television, but it was still that estate right and I had really terrific relationships with reporters and also with French and Democrats. I really I just thought it was different back then. It was a little like sports, meaning that it was competition, but it was friendlier competition. And I was in Charlottesville, by the way, and if you're a Republican in Charlottesville, that's a tough road to hoe man.

Speaker 1: 23:17

And we lost a lot. We lost like all the time. So we were a little like the hapless people that played against the Harlem Globetrotters, right? I mean, we were there just for their entertainment, but I didn't hold it against them. It wasn't their fault, it was just the demographics of the city of Charlottesville at that particular time.

Speaker 3: 23:33

Well, back, brian. You mentioned the business, todd. How it's changed, I mean, I really miss the fact. In Virginia in particular, the major newspapers were owned by old companies that have been around forever the Rondo Times, the Times-Dispatch, the Virginia Pilot. Now are all three owned by the same group Lee Enterprises yeah, they own all three of them.

Speaker 4: 23:57

Yeah, I think so. I'm not sure the Pilot? I don't think so, but the others yeah. And of course, Lee owns papers all over the country.

Speaker 3: 24:05

You just lose something.

Speaker 1: 24:06

in my opinion, Wasn't the Times Dispatch, the media general. That was a family too, wasn't it? The Bryant family, the Bryant family.

Speaker 3: 24:12

And what about the Running Times was? That was landmark. It was landmark when I started and that was also the Virginia pilot.

Speaker 4: 24:21

It was back then. Yeah, the big three were well, it was the Times. Well, yeah, it was the Times. Dispatched Pilot Greensboro and Running Times back in the day.

Speaker 3: 24:31

Hell when I was. Hell when I was growing up in Richmond. You had the afternoon paper, the Richmond Newsleader, the Times Leader. You had the Times Dispatch in the morning the Newsleader in the afternoon.

Speaker 1: 24:42

Think about that. I barely remember that as a kid, even in Tidewater, I think it was the Daily Press and whatever the afternoon was in Hampton.

Speaker 3: 24:48

Yeah, the Daily Press.

Speaker 1: 24:49

Yeah, but I think about that now. So not only does something print show, up once a day.

Speaker 3: 24:56

it shows up twice a day, right exactly so, and Todd the Run of the Times headquarters. Is what Been sold.

Speaker 4: 25:05

Yeah, so the building was sold to the Runnick School System, so their administrative function is in it. Now our office is across the street. We have a space in the bankruptcy court building on the bottom floor. Now one office. Yeah, it's just the single office in roanoke.

Speaker 3: 25:19

Yeah where is the paper print? Where is it? Where's the printer? I?

Speaker 1: 25:25

see, let me back up a little bit. You know, when you were a kid I mean you know um, did you think you know journal? Did you watch the evening news and think I want to be a journalist? I mean, how did or did it occur when you went to college, or what was your? I mean, you haven't done anything else, right? I mean this is what you've done, your entire life.

Speaker 4: 25:42

I've been doing this now going on 35 years. Yeah, so I guess I'm glutton for punishment. I think what really sparked it for me was probably in college, when, you know, I knew I wanted to write. I always enjoyed writing, and that's what kind of started it. I got an internship at Tech in the university relations office, wrote some press releases. I still didn't really know if journalism was going to be the path, but I got lucky and got offered a job right before I graduated. So I was like what the heck? It wasn't an alternative so I did it.

Speaker 4: 26:27

It was a paycheck and one thing leads to another, and it's 34, some plus months years ago.

Speaker 1: 26:35

What did your family do growing up I?

Speaker 4: 26:37

mean, my dad was in middle management at Reynolds Aluminum in Bristol, which at the time was a big deal. My dad was a machinist and was really good at fixing machines, so he worked his way up into middle management and I actually worked in there for a summer. So it was cool. But whenever the machines broke down and you know, at one time they were running the Reynolds aluminum plant Bristle just made in the round pop-top ends of cans, not the cans itself, just the ends, but they were running like 2 million a day out of that plant, good God. And so machines obviously went down and my dad was always the one who got the call. My mom, she was a stay-at-home mom for a long time but she is a creative person. So once my sister and I got a little older, they started their own custom framing business out of the house and my mom and dad were pretty successful at that too for years and years. So my mom ran that business.

Speaker 1: 27:43

Well, how about the news? I mean, I think that, even because you're a little younger, I think, than me and Carth, we're getting to the point now where everybody's a little younger.

Speaker 1: 27:53

But when I was growing up my father was only in eighth grade education, but talking about current events around the dinner table was what we did and he was opinionated depending on the day was what his opinion was. But I remember thinking that it was that's what got me interested in public service and politics and everything else. Was this idea that it wasn't idea, that we weren't distracted the way people are now. Was that similar in your house where you engaged in discussion?

Speaker 4: 28:18

Absolutely, and it's interesting you say that. I mean we always sat around the dinner table too and talked about things, and I had a lot of friends in Bristol, and you know, back in those days, as you know, I mean there was no cell phone. You weren't glued to the TV or your cell phone 24-7. We ran around, we did things, we socialized. We're always out somewhere and I think that has an impact for sure.

Speaker 1: 28:41

Well, particularly, I think, if you think about it, you've got to be a little extroverted to do your job. You may be an introvert and an extrovert, but you need to do uncomfortable things, call people who may not want to hear from you, show up in places where you may not be wanted right, absolutely. So there's a little bit of. We've got to have some gumption and guts to do what you do, and I think that's something too, that I think people are a little bit more passive today, that we're less likely to want to invade someone else's personal space.

Speaker 4: 29:11

I agree. I mean that's the hardest thing in journalism is to go ask the questions. You know somebody's not going to want to answer. It's also one of the most difficult things in journalism to have the guts to call people up and you know Carthan knows this and tell them before the story's coming. You know I'm going to write this story and here's what it's going to say, because you always get different answers. Some people are just like you know, do what you got to do. Some people are like you know, I want to sue you. You know, I've heard that a thousand times and you know, at first you get scared when you're first in the business, but then after a while, you're just like OK, well, sue me then. So, yes, yes, and that's one of the things that I try to convey to reporters that come on the scene and are new is you know, if you're going to be a journalist, you got to have the ability to ask that question. Yeah, because that's what journalism is.

Speaker 1: 30:05

Wasn't it also? But one last question currently Was it a little bit of a fraternity back then too, like you all sort all knew each other. So Bob Gibson the great Bob Gibson, in Charlottesville, I think, now works at UVA. But I remember just what a really great relationship I had with him, meaning I thought Bob was really, really smart and I don't ever think there was a time he wasn't fair. But I also knew that he knew Tyler Whitley, and you know there was this. It just seemed like you guys all knew each other.

Speaker 4: 30:31

Absolutely. And it's funny, tyler Whitley, I knew him even though he was at Time Dispatch because he covered General Assembly stuff and I remember we used to all go out and all the reporters would be at Penny Lane's in Richmond and we'd have a big time. So yeah, I mean there was a camaraderie and a brotherhood, and I think that kind of included other media as well. I mean, we all used to be in a gaggle somewhere and everybody knew each other.

Speaker 1: 30:58

Well, the truth was the benefactor of that right, Meaning that, since there was this group of people in this culture, there wasn't. You guys want to break stories, I'm sure. Sure, you always wanted to beat the other guy but, sometimes he wins, sometimes you win, sometimes she wins Absolutely. Yeah, you always wanted to beat the other guy, sure, but sometimes he wins, sometimes you win, sometimes she wins Absolutely yeah.

Speaker 3: 31:15

Well, back to Southwest Virginia. I was just growing up in Bristol. I was thinking what's your take on, over the past 20 years, how Southwest Virginia has been changing?

Speaker 4: 31:28

or has changed? It's a great question. Obviously, virginia Tech is a big component of that. It's become such a huge 800-pound gorilla is what I like to call it from the journalistic side, because it's driving so many things, and I think that to me, is what stands out more than anything is Tech's growth. Of course you know you've got Radford too, but I think the higher ed component of Southwest Virginia through Virginia Tech and you know the jobs it's driving and now the med school in Roanoke and how that part of Roanoke has really taken off and is going to continue to grow. I mean, I think that's probably the thing that sticks out to me the most.

Speaker 3: 32:10

I think, yeah, finally, finally, that long-sought connection between Roanoke City and Virginia Tech has taken place. It's really become the new railroad.

Speaker 1: 32:23

Well, the other thing I'll tell you and I work in higher ed the great thing about this organic way of coming with an industry and you saw it with banking and you saw it with railroad it's pretty easy to wake up one day and find out their suitcases are being packed up and they're moving somewhere else. If you have a medical school, they don't move. I mean the one that's at Harvard's been there since Harvard's there and it's not going to Philadelphia because they've got their own. So in other words, you're not at risk for somebody incentivizing or whatever. That's the great thing about Virginia's higher education system. It's driving economic development and innovation and it's not at risk it may be at some economic force risk, but it's not at risk for just somebody to pick up one day and leave town. It's got loyalty that the private sector, frankly, doesn't always have.

Speaker 3: 33:08

But your hometown is really I mean Bristol is going through a renaissance.

Speaker 4: 33:13

Yeah, I mean I'm amazed. I mean when I was growing up there was tumbleweeds downtown. Nobody even went down there, and so it's crazy for me to go home now and see what's going on there. But you're right, I mean so much has been going on around the Country Music Museum and music and all the events they have there. Another casino, Absolutely. And that's going to be crazy when that gets. Of course it's crazy now, but when they build the permanent facility I'm sure it's going to have a huge impact on that region for sure. But I think that in a lot of ways that's going to save Bristol. Virginia, I mean Bristol, Tennessee, has always been the bigger side of town, but Virginia, you know, like the Reynolds Metals plant I was talking about, it's closed. I mean, Virginia's side was down to like less than 20,000. I think it is less than 20,000 now, but now with the casinos there, it's going to go up for sure.

Speaker 3: 34:08

Back, switching from Franklin County. When you covered Runduck City, you covered City Hall. Yes, talk a little bit about some of those days and some of the personalities on council, oh wow.

Speaker 4: 34:21

There are so many. I was thinking you had said something you might have asked me about stories that I covered. I mean, I think my career covering City Hall was kind of defined by the whole Victory Stadium fight, oh my gosh, and there were so many personalities just surrounding that issue.

Speaker 1: 34:38

I'm not familiar with that. Yeah, so it's like the.

Speaker 4: 34:41

Hundred Years War in Roanoke. I mean it was crazy. So do you know what Victory?

Speaker 1: 34:47

Stadium is I do? I went to a Fourth of July fireworks thing.

Speaker 4: 34:51

So that was. You know that facility was just part of the fabric of Roanoke because of the history behind it. You know Virginia Tech playing football in there and all that, but it had gotten to the point where it was in such disrepair. The conversation started about what should we do? Should we spend a bunch of money and fix it up or should we tear it down? And from there it just became this unbelievable event. I remember going to council meetings that were it was packed and people standing out in the hallways and people getting up and yelling at the council. I remember there was this old Denison Roanoke and he stood up and he pointed his finger at the council and he said Victory Stadium was built to the glory of God. I mean, it was something else.

Speaker 1: 35:40

Let me just back up real quick. Was it named Victory Stadium because of the war? Yeah, yeah, World War II right. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 35:45

So in the old days I mean they had the Thanksgiving Day VMI and Virginia Tech were playing, both corps would march in. I mean this was something that I mean it was amazing, this was big, and so I mean this was like Gore versus Bush.

Speaker 1: 35:58

This thing went on forever, yeah, and so so around? What time was this? I mean, was this 20 years ago? I went to a.

Speaker 4: 36:03

It was in the late 90s, early 2000s.

Speaker 3: 36:09

Okay, right, who's the artist from Brown Oak? I mean Charlottesville, dave Dave Matthews. Dave Matthews, I went to a concert.

Speaker 1: 36:18

Yes, yes, dave Matthews played at the Victory Stadium, he did play at Victory Stadium and yeah.

Speaker 4: 36:25

So of course, the politicians being the politicians, they got scared. So what do you do? You create a committee. So that's what they did. They created the Victory Stadium Committee, and so the Victory Stadium Committee was supposed to study this and then come back with a recommendation. And I think there were seven people there might have been more, it was somewhere between seven and I don't know 11 or 12 people on the committee, but and this went on the committee studied this for quite a while, but essentially they came back with a recommendation to tear it down, and so there, was this movement I think it was called Citizens for Sensible Stadium Decision or something like that and so they were on the other side of this.

Speaker 4: 37:11

So it continued, and continued, and continued until there was finally the vote, and it was a 4-3 vote, and I remember the council person who you really didn't know what he was going to do until he did. It was a guy named Alfred Dow and he cast the vote. But I remember looking at him right after he cast the vote and he looked like he'd been beat with a bat. He was just sitting there with his eyes wide open like, oh my gosh, what have I just done?

Speaker 1: 37:36

It's four to three to tear it down.

Speaker 4: 37:37

It's four to three to tear it down.

Speaker 1: 37:39

Yeah and it got torn down it got torn down.

Speaker 3: 37:42

It also was in the floodplain. I mean the Rundown River goes by. It would flood all the time.

Speaker 1: 37:49

So now it's just a big green, so it sounds like to me as a neutral party. It sounded like it was probably the right decision. It was a disrepair, it was in a flood zone, but we're Virginians, we're all Virginians, and what do we? We like history. We like our history. Yeah, so it had some history to it, right?

Speaker 4: 38:03

I mean there's still people that say it was a bad decision. But, and you know, there were people that, back to our early part of this conversation, they were really angry with me, really really angry with me. I had to take some I mean, some of them were calling me out publicly during council meetings.

Speaker 1: 38:22

Was it because they?

Speaker 4: 38:23

thought you had bias in your covering. Yeah, they thought my reporting was biased towards tearing it down. Yeah, I see.

Speaker 1: 38:26

Yeah they did, and it was not biased towards.

Speaker 4: 38:29

No, no, I was just reporting what was going on.

Speaker 1: 38:32

Well, it just sounds like to me. You guys just having a conversation about it sounds reasonable to me.

Speaker 3: 38:36

Around this site to Todd's earlier point is where the med school is Virginia Tech Med School and it's just amazing and the city's done a beautiful job. They established this greenway that goes from Roanoke to Salem correct Follows the Roanoke River. It's beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

Speaker 1: 38:56

Well, it sounds like to me it ended up being, in hindsight, a pretty good decision probably.

Speaker 4: 39:00

Yeah, and I mean I think now, with what you see going on over there, with the development of the med school and the other buildings over there and the other spinoff private development, I mean I really don't think a big old stadium sitting there would work. Yeah, I think that's what most people would say.

Speaker 1: 39:14

So if you wanted to reminisce, you could still go there and close your eyes and pretend it's Thanksgiving On the flip side.

Speaker 3: 39:18

The Hotel Monoc is an example of a wonderful partnership that saved the hotel. Norfolk and Western Railroad owned it, they closed it, and then the Virginia Tech Foundation.

Speaker 1: 39:28

I remember coming over here in the mid-'90s when it was just reopening. I thought first of all the food was incredible. They had that buffet, that lunch buffet and the cake. I mean it was like something out of New York City and I just thought then. And there was this buzz about the place.

Speaker 3: 39:44

I'm going to ask Donald, I'm going to throw some names and just give me your thoughts. Just Jeopardy.

Speaker 1: 39:53

Just as a disclosure you were not given these names in advance.

Speaker 4: 39:56

I might not have called my lawyer you were not given these names in advance. I was not David Bowers. Oh, david Bowers, former mayor of Rwanda. Obviously he's running again. Constant is one word I would bring up with David. I mean he's not going to go away, he's going to keep running. I think he's trying to take the Jim Trout route, but you know he's not been as successful as Jim was at getting reelected.

Speaker 3: 40:29

And who is this gentleman? By the way, David Bowers is a long time he's served. How many?

Speaker 4: 40:35

He was mayor for three terms, not successive, and he was on council for two or three terms. He's a lawyer in Roanoke and he was a Democrat and then he was an independent and now he's running as a Republican.

Speaker 1: 40:47

Okay, all right, jim.

Speaker 3: 40:48

Trout Jim.

Speaker 4: 40:49

Trout.

Speaker 3: 40:50

James O Tiger Trout, I've got you covered.

Speaker 4: 40:53

One of the His name is Tiger James O Tiger Trout. He got the name Tiger because he was a boxer. He was an amateur boxer but you know, I'm glad that name came up because he's such tied to the fabric of Roenick. You know, trout had so much to do, whether it was his idea or whether he championed it once it became an idea. His idea or whether he championed it once it became an idea the Spur-Up Mill Mountain, the airport as it currently stands, the Second Street Bridge, the rocket over there at the Transportation Museum, the Roanoke Center for Industry and Technology, it goes on and on.

Speaker 4: 41:26

But Trout, you know one of the best stories I wrote in my entire career, of the thousand stories I wrote, trout had this great story. He kept getting knocked down in his life and he kept getting back up and a lot of it was tied to the boxer Jim Trout, and he would never let me tell that story. I mean, I knew all these details and it was just a wonderful tale of a person and he just looked oh no, you don't want to tell that. And we used to joke, you know, jim Trout's going to die at a council meeting. Well, he did die at a council meeting and so after he did, I got to write the story, wow, and I wrote this and it's still one of the favorite stories I ever wrote because I got to tell his story.

Speaker 4: 42:10

You know, trout, at one point when Noel C Taylor was elected mayor in Roanoke which was a huge name, that's who the city hall is named after now the first black mayor Trout would have there was a lot of people who believed Trout would have won that race. He was going to run for mayor but he got a DUI and Noel C Taylor was elected, which you know. Noel C Taylor may have been elected anyway, who knows. But that's kind of, you know, interesting to talk about. But then Trout came back after that and he got elected to council. Then he'd get beaten but he'd come back again and get elected. It just went on and on and on and on. He just wouldn't stop. That's a great story.

Speaker 3: 42:50

And as soon as he Todd would say, he would always tell Todd, I've got you covered.

Speaker 4: 42:56

Yeah, he would call me up and at the end of the conversation he'd just be like got you covered and he'd hang up. But Trout also had one. He had so many great sayings. But you know and it's a lot to do again with our parts of this conversation Trout knew you had to get four votes to get anything done. Yeah, I mean, there's so many people in politics now they just don't understand that you can't. You've got to have other people vote with you. And he used to say, jackson, when you get four, get off the phone.

Speaker 1: 43:22

That's what I heard too, back in politics. They said you only need one thing to be a good politician how to count.

Speaker 3: 43:28

Exactly All right, see.

Speaker 4: 43:30

Richard Cranwell. You know I haven't seen him in so long, but strategically smart for sure and almost always played his cards correctly, and you know I would like to see him now. I haven't seen him in so long I spoke to him this week.

Speaker 3: 43:51

We're going to have him on the next time we do this. I'll maybe have you come up. He'd love to see you For our audience. Dickie Cranwell, longtime member of the House of Delegates from Benton and was a Majority Leader for many years.

Speaker 1: 44:09

And a real personality too, back when they were really substantive, back when they were really substantive. One of the most effective floor leaders, I think in the 20th century in the General Assembly, much to the chagrin of a couple of Republican governors.

Speaker 4: 44:23

Yeah, and I mean, he had so much to do with huge decisions like the fact that cities can't annex and what that did for counties. I mean, there were so many huge decisions he was part of and helped manipulate.

Speaker 1: 44:36

Well, that's an interesting story too, because if you think about it, he was a real statewide figure. I mean, that was so. You may not get to Roanoke if you were in Tidewater or Richmond, but you knew about Roanoke and this area because of Dickey Cranwell.

Speaker 4: 44:46

Yeah, and I mean that's a good point too, because you had Woodrum, you had Cranwell, you had other huge personalities from this part of the state that, even though this part of the state didn't have the numbers and representation, they had the personalities and that's not the same anymore either.

Speaker 1: 45:01

That's right, and the seniority, and the seniority made a big difference.

Speaker 3: 45:03

You had, like Bill Hopkins was in the Senate Ray Garland that's another character. You had Madison Marie, a great member of the state senate from Montgomery County.

Speaker 1: 45:13

His name came up the other day when you and I were just having an offline conversation, because he was a farmer, right?

Speaker 3: 45:21

Well, he was a retired, he was a major in the United States Army, he fought WWII, met a German lady. They got married.

Speaker 1: 45:26

Yes, he was a farmer, but when he was in the legislature he was a gentleman farmer.

Speaker 3: 45:37

And he had these this fictitional he would have these during floor debates he would say I've been in discussion with Uncle Billy, this fiction Uncle Billy. He used Uncle Billy to kind of get the message across. I loved him. I'm trying to think of some other in the industry, like Warner, Dollhouse was a consequential figureunduck business community, wouldn't you agree?

Speaker 4: 45:56

Yeah, and I think he's still alive. And what was he?

Speaker 1: 45:59

Was it a corporation? Dominion Bank? Dominion Bank.

Speaker 3: 46:01

Dominion Bank, which ultimately, I guess, imploded.

Speaker 1: 46:04

I remember that name now because it's such a. It's almost like I have a novel. Warner Dollhouse. I mean, it sounds like it's going to be the.

Speaker 3: 46:10

CEO of the bank right I never really thought about that. Well, yeah, in the old days, john Hancock this goes way back Roanoke Electric Steel. He was kind of a Bill Goodwin of Roanoke.

Speaker 4: 46:21

Yeah, there's that story where there was like four or five power brokers in Roanoke and they would all go meet, smoke cigars and make the decisions on what was going to happen. Did they really do that? I think that's true, yeah. I mean, I think there were four or five people for a long time. Did they really smoke cigars too?

Speaker 3: 46:40

I wish, that's one meeting I was never invited to. Well then you have of course William Fralin and Hayward Fralin, and Nick Togman was another major advance auto.

Speaker 4: 46:52

Yeah, yeah, which he's in the news now with what they did yesterday with the $25 million gift to Carillion for the cancer center. Ambassador Togman, yes, yes, he and his wife were giving $25 million to Carillion for a new cancer center.

Speaker 1: 47:09

That's great. That's terrific news. Are you through with the names, because I've got a question. Yes, what are the three either biggest or most interesting stories? You've had a long career, so line them up and just say oh well, it's really impossible.

Speaker 4: 47:24

But I can bring up a few. I mean it's hard to start any conversation in that frame without talking about the tech shootings, because it was just you know that event and the gravity of it and the aftermath. I mean you learn in journalism never assume anything. You don't know what life's going to bring. But it's hard for me to think there would be anything to that level that would happen again.

Speaker 1: 47:49

Well, take us back to then and just tell us how did you find out about it and how did it play out over several days, yeah, and it was all encompassing for months, I mean it was.

Speaker 4: 48:00

It was just. It was unbelievable, uh. But how we found out about it is I was actually in the new river bureau at the time, uh, and we had it's different now with digital and all that, but back then we had the scanners that barked all the time. We could hear everybody, all the law enforcement, and they came on that morning and started talking about we could tell something big was going on there. And then eventually you heard a voice that said I think the first one was said we've got 21 black. And we had never heard that before and of course, what it meant was we got 21 dead, and so we immediately started scrambling people to the campus as quickly as we could. And, of course, alan Kim, who got the shot everybody has seen and kind of became the picture of the officer helping, trying to think his name Kevin I think it was the last minute, but they were helping him out Allen actually got there first and of course the cops had already created a perimeter. He snuck in and hid behind a car and that's how he got that shot. He was actually hiding between a few cars and stood up and got that shot.

Speaker 4: 49:19

But you know, from then on some of that's a blur to me because it was such, I mean, the whole staff was involved and we put out six or seven special sections in a row, which, thinking about that now, is just insane that we were able to do that.

Speaker 4: 49:36

And then it became, you know, we created working groups on facets of the shootings and there were three or four reporters on each group and an editor, and all those groups had their charge to go investigate or to go get information on this or that or this or that, investigate or to go get information on this or that or this or that, and it.

Speaker 4: 49:55

You know, probably it was months to a year that it was all-encompassing. And of course you know our resources. I mean they weren't enough to cover that story and the national media came in and that was the whole thing about how the national media portrayed Virginia Tech and Southwest Virginia, because they could just come in and stay for a few days and then leave. And so it was interesting, as the local newspaper and our philosophy on how to cover it differed from the other news media. I mean, we had made the decision right up front that we were going to cover it as the community newspaper and we were the ones that are going to continue to be here, and we had to think about that and cover it in a certain way. So there was a lot of discussion about that.

Speaker 1: 50:42

Well, nothing else comes to that level. But what are some other stories? I mean I guess that's the point, right. I mean there's that and then there's everything else, yeah, yeah I mean, I think that's a good way to put it.

Speaker 4: 50:56

Well, the Jim Trout way to put it. Uh well, the the jim trout story. I talked about victory stadium. I talked about I mean I also, you know, covered a lot of talking about virgil goud. I mean I covered him when he went to washington, which was really cool because it was like kind of like mr goud goes to washington because you know that's how franklin county viewed him and you know there were a busload of busload of people and I rode on one of the buses when, you know, he started his career in Congress and I mean there was just busloads of people that went up there for his first days.

Speaker 4: 51:24

But I remember, you know, spending a lot of time with him on the road and and Carthens heard this story but I went with him one time when he was elected to Congress and we went to a fair in Appomattox and we went to like some fair in Chase City I mean that district was so massive even then and he never missed a name. We met hundreds of people at night and he never missed a first name. It was one of the craziest, most astounding things I'd ever seen from a politician that he could just remember that many people by name, no matter where he was at.

Speaker 1: 52:05

Well, it's funny because he's on the podcast, which I really enjoyed meeting him. I'd never met him before but living in Charlottesville, people would talk about him and here's one of the things he was in that law school class with Bob Mueller and Mary Sue, terry and Chuck Robb and people would often say he was the smartest of the group, but yet the portrayal of him it was almost like he was a character in a John Grisham novel or whatever, because he is so folksy and down home. But he's also got an incredible mind too, and I think that was obvious in just what you said the ability to capture names and the ability to stay in the moment, absolutely. I mean, he was a really good retail politician.

Speaker 3: 52:42

Oh yeah, todd, were you covering him when he was defeated in what was that? 2008? No, 2006?

Speaker 4: 52:52

I had just become an editor, but I was part of being an editor on those stories. Do you recall? Seeing that, perhaps possible. Not really. To be honest with you, there's been a few that I didn't really see coming, which would include Morgan Griffith beating Rick Boucher. I mean, I didn't see that coming either. Again, back to the. You shouldn't assume anything in this business.

Speaker 1: 53:16

And Virgil lost to Perriello, perriello yeah.

Speaker 4: 53:21

And Charlottesville had a.

Speaker 1: 53:23

Well, Charlottesville was a heavyweight opposite politically to Virgil.

Speaker 3: 53:28

Well, it's the same year that Barack Obama was elected.

Speaker 4: 53:30

I think yeah that's right, and I thought Perriello, because I'd met and talked to him numerous times, I thought, with his background and everything, he would be around for a while too. So that was kind of interesting, right, he was a one-term wonder.

Speaker 1: 53:44

Then the district. Does this district still include Charlottesville? Yes, that's kind of strange because it's become a much more conservative district. Yes, but it includes one of the more liberal parts of the state?

Speaker 3: 53:56

Absolutely. Yes, that's fascinating. Then we have the Bob Good John McGuire shootout. That's been interesting. Bob Good just won't let go apparently. Yeah, indeed, he's going to spend $100,000 to have a recount which is most likely not going to change.

Speaker 1: 54:16

Well, we need to wrap up. I've got a final question, but do you have one before Go ahead? Okay, the future of journalism. I mean, you're not as old as you think you are Still got a little bit of tread left on your tire. But what do you, I mean? See, it would be easy, I would think, to be pessimistic, meaning that you've seen it and it's the tail end of its glory days, and now it's a much more fragmented business with all sorts of competing interests. What do you think the future of?

Speaker 4: 54:45

it is journalism. It's a really intriguing good question. I mean, I don't think things are going to, I don't think we're going back to a newsroom of 500 people.

Speaker 4: 54:58

It's not going to happen. I think fragmented is a good word. I mean, obviously we still have a print product. I don't know how long that's going to be. I mean, obviously at some point everything is going to be online and then at that point can you create the kind of revenue to actually increase a staff. But you know, here with Cardinal News and with you know, one of our former reporters has a website, the Roanoke Rambler, Henry Jandreau. I mean, the thing that I like about that is there's it's still going on, still going on. I don't, and that I like that fact of it that it's not going to get to the point where there's not going to be a local news function doing the job it needs to do. You know, as far as the running times goes, I would hope we can get to the point where we can increase the staff back to a level where, in an all-digital world, where we can start doing some things that we used to do as far as just covering stories. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 56:07

Cardinal. I was going to say that Todd mentioned Cardinal News. I think that is an example, a good example, of journalism. It's a silver lining to me how successful that has become. Who would have thought that?

Speaker 4: 56:26

Well, I mean, and the business model is different, obviously.

Speaker 3: 56:29

It is. But, he's got multiple reporters, but he's got multiple reporters.

Speaker 4: 56:33

But when you have a heavy hitter funding you, you have to deal with that. And I'm not saying anything that it's wrong or not, I'm just saying it's a different business model.

Speaker 1: 56:49

It's ultimately centralization versus decentralization. It used to be a highly centralized business which is now becoming increasingly decentralized, and also the medium itself is changing. I agree with you. I still like the tactile nature of the paper, but I realize that's a group that's shrinking daily and at some point I'm going to have to come to grips with looking at something on a computer or on a tablet.

Speaker 3: 57:07

Well, I dread that, but I love touching it too. I was just thinking, brian. I would like to invite Todd Dwayne and maybe one other reporter to be here after the presidential election sometime in November. Sure, we could have a roundtable discussion about what happened.

Speaker 1: 57:27

Are we still going to tell stories about crazy things you used to?

Speaker 4: 57:31

say I would love that.

Speaker 1: 57:33

Maybe you could come up with some new crazy things to say Instead of just doing the old hits, maybe you can come up with a new hit. There's no doubt that I can I bet you, if you put your mind to it, you could do it.

Speaker 3: 57:40

I probably can, but, todd, thank you so much for being here today.

Speaker 4: 57:47

It's just been a treat.

Speaker 3: 57:48

I've enjoyed it immensely and I appreciate that and we want you to come back and we'll do this roundtable to give some analysis to the presidential election. Thank you, Todd.

Speaker 1: 58:00

Thanks. Thank you for joining us today on the Virginians of Interest podcast. If you like what you heard today, please like and subscribe to our podcast.

Speaker 2: 58:08

Thank you for listening to the Virginians of Interest podcast. To hear other episodes of this podcast, head to virginiansofinterestcom.