Speaker 2: 0:12

And now from the Blue Ridge PBS studios in Roanoke, virginia. It's the Virginians of Interest podcast, with your hosts Brian Campbell and Karthan Curran.

Speaker 3: 0:23

Hello, my name is Karthan Curran and thank you for joining the Virginians of Interest podcast. My friend and co-host, brian Campbell, has a conflict and can't be with us today. Today we have CL Sigmund as our guest. Cl welcome. Thank you, sir.

Speaker 1: 0:37

It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 3: 0:39

We're going to talk about a lot of different things. You've led a very interesting life. We're going to touch on your early years in Ferrum, the Republican Party, the emergence of the modern Republican Party, your career at Owens Miner, your being a secretary to the Sons of the Revolution, and then we'll discuss a little horse racing in the Commonwealth, a very cherished tradition. Cl. Tell our listeners where you grew up and went to college.

Speaker 1: 1:11

I grew up in the Ternus Creek region of Franklin County and Ternus Creek begins about two and a half miles past Ferrum College on 40. And then it winds its way all the way to Five Mile Road past St Peter's Episcopal Church, st Peter's in the Mountains, the Rock Church as it was known, but our farm. I lived on a farm. My grandparents were all in a family compound, basically the Sigmund Hereford Farm was there. My grandfather was in the farming and in the lumber and timber business. He had sawmills, he bought timber, bought land, cut the timber. He owned most of that whole land at one time or another for the timber land. As far as you could usually see, and probably the most famous landmark on our place, our section was called Poplar Grove Farm, just Poplar Grove because of the wonderful poplar trees. It was called Poplar Grove Also. That was. Poplar Grove. School was on that property and unfortunately it's not in existence today. But I would love to have a marker where the old Poplar Grove School was.

Speaker 3: 2:27

So that was a public school Public school, yes, public school elementary. Or that was a public school Public school, yes, elementary or it was everything In those days.

Speaker 1: 2:33

You went from grade one no such thing as kindergarten, that was at home, that kindle learning. But then they went from one through, probably about to seventh or eighth grade, probably about to seventh grade. Kids in those days dropped out all along, but most of them got a great education. If you see the old textbooks from those, the new geography, the new math, the new history, the new things, and Poplar Grove was quite some old pictures I have of my father's. He was in one of the classes there and it was every family in that area went to Poplar Grove School. You could walk or ride your horse over, your pony over if you wanted to. And that was when the Pernas Creek Road ran right by it and in front of our place. It was later changed and went through the Jim Sigmund Farm up at it's like a long, about a mile runway, as I call it, which was straight in the highway, and that's the only straight part of the highway is they cut through our property but Poplar. So he was.

Speaker 1: 3:42

In the teens and the 20s the St Peter's Church also had a school. They started a parochial school and actually was run by nuns. The Episcopal Church had nuns in those days and my aunt and one of my uncles, I think, went to St Peter's. But that was a great educational part. Especially they paid a lot of attention to the ladies, the women children of those days. But Poplar Grove School was, I think, probably one of the most interesting things at Poplar Grove School that I remember was my grandfather went there and he told this story. They had a teacher named Ben Drury and their recess. He played a game called Fox and Hounds and he was a tall, lanky guy. He was the fox and they were the hounds and they chased him all through those fields and up the hill. That was the only sport they had was when he was playing fox and hounds with them.

Speaker 3: 4:50

They'd probably be arrested today for doing something like that. So, with where you grew up and your roots, it seemed almost natural that you'd find your way to Ferrum Junior College at the time.

Speaker 1: 5:03

Well, I went to Callaway School. We were right on the end of the bus line for Calloway, between Calloway and Ferrum Schools, and so we went to Calloway and the old old school bus come and picked us up and it, over the years it took many routes, routes of which way we were going. Sometimes we'd go up off Hill, sometimes we'd go the straight route, which is now called the Faroe Mountain Road. But I was the Faroe and Calloway had one through nine, so you were in the same class if you passed all the way through. We had a few people that had to drop back and also a couple like Wayne Angel, who served on the Board of Supervisors, frank Javier's, I think. He skipped one or two grades and he moved up a grade to our class. He was behind us but he graduated younger than the rest of the class.

Speaker 3: 6:04

I'll be darned. So tell us your earlier memories of your college career at Ferrum.

Speaker 1: 6:12

Well, after high school I went to Ferrum. It was 1961. I entered in the fall of 61. And it was a terrific experience. It was probably the first time that I had a chance to interact with people from all over the country or internationally, and I enjoy people. And Ferrum gave me the opportunity to meet people from New York, a lot of Richmonders, so that was interesting and I got to become life friends with those when I went to after Ferrum, going to RPI. So a lot of them transferred there to the University of Richmond or to Randolph-Macon, so they were in the area but they were still friends of mine.

Speaker 1: 6:57

And I remember it was probably my first exposure to go to school In Franklin County. In those days the Catholics had to leave. There was no Catholic church in Franklin County and there was no synagogue. So if you were Jewish you went to Martinsville or Roanoke to the temple. If you were Catholic you had to go to those places too, either to Roanoke or to Martinsville for a Catholic church. And so it was my first exposure to both Jewish students and Catholic students, their religions, and one of my favorite classes at Ferrum was the class on religion we had to take and the title of the class was Religions of the Bible and people do not understand the Old Testament with the totally Jewish in its nature, and I had a great discussion in Richmond with a new professor that's coming to teach religious history on the religions of the Bible and I talked about that class with her over the holiday weekend on my street in Richmond.

Speaker 1: 8:01

That's amazing, but it really was. I met Ferrum was still pretty much segregated. It was not, except we had Asians. We had foreign students, very few African-Americans. I don't recall any at that time and I don't think the college was a segregated college. It's just they did not attend. They were more looped to 10 in the all-black colleges like Hampton Institute, Virginia State, Virginia Union. Virginia Union Mostly stayed in Hampton because they were more of a public. Virginia Union was private in Richmond.

Speaker 3: 8:42

So at this time, when you were at Ferrum, you became head of the college Republicans and that kind of was your beginning of the evaluation.

Speaker 1: 8:50

Well, I had been involved in. I had been working in politics ever since I was 10 years old. My first campaign was illegally stuffing mailboxes with Ted Dalton flyers. You know you were not supposed to put anything in a mailbox that didn't have a stamp on it, but I didn't know that and innocence, I guess, is an excuse to break the law at that time. But anyway, I started with Ted Dalton and I have lost it. I can't tell you. I have a lot of political memorabilia that I've kept, but that was one I lost the letter from Ted Dalton thanking me and encouraging me to continue my patriotic service in supporting the involvement in politics.

Speaker 3: 9:31

For our listeners. It might be interesting if you could expand a little bit about who Ted Dalton was and his importance in modern Virginia 20th century politics.

Speaker 1: 9:46

He was the genesis of changing the face of Virginia politics. Basically the history is pretty much on his side because the Democratic Party, the bird machine, had ruled since 1920s and Harry Bird Sr was getting old and he was in Washington and pretty much in Washington he still had control and his control was very interesting how it came about. He informed the Compensation Board in the General Assembly. The Compensation Board set the salaries of every state-elected official at the county level. Therefore if you were a Democrat you would look more favorably on them because the Democrats controlled all of those appointments. So your salary was conducive to the party you were in. And so that was his greatest grip on how the boards the boards that the governor's most powerful man in most governorships the Virginia governor of the Commonwealth is probably the most powerful was always the most powerful office of any governor because they controlled so many board appointments. And that's how all the party structure was filled, all the way down to the sheriffs, the commonwealth's attorneys and the treasurers of the county. But Ted Dalton was a lawyer from Radford. He was a Republican and he was very likable. He had served in the state senate. He was elected a state senator. There were only two Republican senators in the Virginia Senate Floyd Landreth of Galax and Ted Dalton and when Ted Dalton ran he was known to the Democratic Party and he was a respected, a very respected man. He ran in 53 against Thomas Stanley and Thomas Stanley defeated Ted Dalton. It was probably the closest election in the modern party, the Republican Party.

Speaker 1: 11:59

Four years later, of course, ted Dalton won and J Lindsay Allman of Roanoke. He was a former congressman and a judge in Roanoke. He ran for attorney general and was elected as attorney general. Then he ran for governor in 57. And Ted Dalton ran again.

Speaker 1: 12:23

Segregation was a heated issue in that campaign. I remember going with my grandfather to William Byrd High School here in Roanoke for the debate between Ted Dalton and J Lindsay Allman. And Judge Allman was a very interesting character. He had snow white hair and he pounded his fist as he talked. He was one of those old orators that just roared at the podium and I remember the debate on the school plan to handle the school segregation and he jaded Lindsay Allman with massive resistance as the only answer. Ted Dalton says Judge Allman, I beg to differ with you. Massive resistance is not going to hold water once you get to the federal court. The pupil assignment plan, as it's been inducted in North Carolina, is the only reasonable plan to end segregation in our Virginia schools. Well, he was right later on, because the federal court certainly struck down massive resistance. But that was his introduction and he was the father of Ted Dalton, who later became a very successful governor of Virginia.

Speaker 3: 13:44

John Dalton. John Dalton, ted's son, right. John Dalton, yeah, his son, right, right, and that's great. When he was, john Dalton did follow his father's footsteps and being active in Virginia political life for sure.

Speaker 1: 13:58

He served in the House of Delegates, virginia Senate and the Virginia Senate Lieutenant Governor. I was very active in his lieutenant governor's race. I remember that race, which was 73, when in his Lieutenant Governor's race. I remember that race which was 73 when he was running as Lieutenant Governor, that's when Milt Scott was then running as the Democratic candidate for Governor. Dalton won that year as the Lieutenant Governor and I remember calling him.

Speaker 1: 14:32

I was at that time working. I had gone to my career at Owens-Montag Corporation and we always participated in the Chamber of Commerce picnic every June, which turned out about 3,000 people, every business person. The offices just closed, the corporations just closed, basically for their. A lot of the executives ended up going to the Chamber of Commerce picnic, which was a great affair. It had grown to the point. They headed out at the state fairgrounds and I called John Dalton. I said, john, we're going to have this. If you're thinking of running statewide, you need to be at this picnic.

Speaker 1: 15:10

Well, he accepted quite a way. He came. He was at John Marshall Hotel. I picked him up, drove him out. My gosh, he saw all these people. He shook hands all afternoon. It was amazing. He said thank you and every corporate kid was there CEOs, presidents of corporations shaking his hand. So he had the interest of the business community. That's why his elevation to governor went so smoothly, because the corporate America or corporate Virginia rather embraced him very much and he was a great campaigner, so sincere and a great handshaker and I don't think he missed a hand that day at that picnic.

Speaker 3: 15:56

He was a great stump speaker. He really was Well going back to your days at Ferrum. I think it's interesting. Our listeners will be interested in knowing it, but when you were at Ferrum you also were working for the United Press International News.

Speaker 1: 16:12

I did a lot of things at Ferrum. I did play football, I did play sports, but I played the political games. And the correspondent for Franklin County with UPI was Susan Lewis, was a reporter for the Roanoke Times and she covered Franklin County and I always liked, when I went to school, dropping into the courthouse to hear a trial especially if it was a great trial in a courthouse in Rocky Mount to see what's going on. And that's where I met Susan Lewis and she said you know, you ingestion all this stuff. You should be a stringer for UPI. My fiance is a bureau manager so he hired me as a stringer and I think I got three to four dollars a story I reported, depending on how great it was, and I was so happy to get those checks every month for my little stories that I would report. And I was paid on New York's salary. So my construction job on Ferrum College. I also worked on someone's construction job at the gym at Ferrum. I think I made $87 a week. Well, I could get $3 or $4 a week picking up the phone and calling in a story and my check come every month from United Press in New York. I was paid from their New York office every month. To me that was big to get this check from New York Corporation, but covering things like that, and she said you should do this. So I learned about how news releases need to be done, how things had with my work for UPI and that was very instrumental in me as the president of the Young Republicans.

Speaker 1: 18:01

Well, I had trouble organizing the Young Republican Club at Ferrell. I wanted to organize the Young Republican Club because I had met people at other colleges that Washington Lee Hollins had a young Republican, randolph-macon, sweetbrow, all the UVA had a huge chapter VMI. They all had young Republican chapters clubs, and so I said I want to organize one at Ferrum. Well, the dean of men said you can't do it. I don't know how he had the authority to do it. We said you can't have it unless we have a young Democrat level.

Speaker 1: 18:43

Well, I marched into President Arthur's office I'd known him all my life Well, not all my life, but a lot, a great part of it and Ms Gwathney was the secretary and his little office was a little room beside the old library and right next to the clinic infirmary. And I went in his office and I said I would need to speak to President Arthur and she said sure, go on back. And I told him the story and he said of course you can found it. If the young Democrats want to have a club they can form one. But he got the dean straight and I don't think I did very well with the dean ever for that. I was not on his better list and I had him for a class and I don't think I did as well as I should have. But anyway, we formed it and it became very popular and President Arthur loved it because I was bringing on to campus people like Senator Jim Turk, who was our state senator at that time and he made some great speeches. But when he did I would call Susan Lewis to cover him. I would get the television stations coming. So you had live television filming, a television crew, a camera crew and a reporter would come to campus. Well, ralph Arthur loved that publicity.

Speaker 1: 20:08

And once I had Frank Gravely on Gravely Furniture they made the old grandfather clocks down at Ridgeway. I had him. He was chairman of the 5th District Republican Committee but I had all the press there. I had him covered very well with the press. He ended up, I think, later running for Congress, unsuccessfully from the 5th. But Frank Gravely came and made a great talk and we had probably 15, 20 members which was fairly good for a Republican in those days on campus Republican in those days on campus. But he, dr Arthur, shows up at our meetings to hear and meet Frank Gravely.

Speaker 1: 20:56

Well, the next thing I know Frank Gravely is a big contributor to Ferrum College. Ralph Arthur never let anyone get by without a donation Again. He later went on the board of trustees at Ferrum and was a lifelong contributor to them and there were a lot of people in the political world and financial world that came while the Republicans were very interested in Ferrum and gave money and supported and went on the board of officials. One was Frank Hargrove, who and went on the Board of Visitors. One was Frank Hargrove who later served in the House of Delegates. His son, stuart, went to Ferrum. That's right. So, stuart, last week he became a huge benefactor and friend of Ferrum after his son and I think that has been one of the successes. The parents have supported Ferrum after the children were students at Ferrum.

Speaker 3: 21:55

Yes, that's true in my case. In fact, to your point, Frank Hargrove became chairman of the board at one point. Touching on your Republican activities, I'm fascinated by this story that you were a Rockefeller delegate to the 1968 Republican National Convention and I think our listeners would be interested in knowing who you met one day on an elevator. Well, I will get to that?

Speaker 1: 22:23

Yes, well, I did. I was a great Rockefeller fan. The Valley, the Southwest Virginia and the Valley Republicans were the liberal party of Virginia. We didn't call ourselves progressives, we were labeled as liberal, not quite as liberal as Henry Howell of the Democratic Party, but they were more liberal than the Byrd Democrats and we were really the nucleus that found it, the Buried Democrats, and we were really the nucleus that found it. Len Holton was the liberal Democrat, republican rather that a lot of the old conservatives considered a liberal Democrat basically. But Len Holton's days and he was sort of new, I mean when he was a new face on, he ran for governor in 65 and lost In 65 was To Mills Godwin, to Mills Godwin, and then he ran in 69 for governor against Battle, bill Battle, and won, and then Milt Scott, when he came back, is the Republican candidate for governor and by then the buried Democrats were beginning to take over the Republican Party.

Speaker 1: 23:40

But before that getting back, there was in 1952, the Eisenhower years. Eisenhower years carried Virginia the first Republican since Herbert Hoover to carry Virginia, I guess and he carried Virginia over Adlai Stevenson so heavily that he tucked in three Republican congressmen that year, Tucked in three Republican congressmen that year and we broke the chain of all Democrats in Congress and Dick Poff of Roanoke, the 6th District. Bill Wampler took the 9th against Dr Long MM Long, who served in the Senate of Virginia for many years too and I think after he lost that election he was in the state senate for years and years from Wise County and Joel Brawhill took the 10th and that was the rule the next two years. We lost the 9th. Pat Jennings beat Bill Wampler. They kept trading that seat every two years. It was like a turnover back and forth for two years, for years and years out there. When Walpole and it's one year to be a Republican and it was all, what did you do for the coal industry this week? That's where that district probably went pretty much, but that was really the Republicans.

Speaker 1: 25:09

I was not a delegate, I was an appointed as an honorary assistant sergeant at arms and I was there also working in the Rockefeller campaign, especially dealing with the Virginia delegates. I had a hospitality suite in a Seaview Hotel on the seventh floor and the person you were referring to in the elevator was across the hall from this hospitality suite, was the Honorable Thomas E Dewey of New York and he permanently lived at the Seaview Hotel and that's where he died, in Miami Beach. I'd see him every morning going to play golf and he had his khaki, beautiful khaki colored Bermuda shorts and socks up to the knee and he had a bag of golf clubs. I've never seen as many golf clubs in a bag in my life and I had a friend who once referred to that as a caddy killer bag of clubs and he left every morning in the limousine. His driver in a black Lincoln Town car picked him up and drove him away all the mornings and he spoke at the—he was one of the speakers. He wasn't a keynote, but he did speak at the Republican Convention and I left a little earlier, right after after his speech, to get back to open up and be ready when the delegates return back to the CV. That's where most of the Virginia, all the Virginia delegates, brawhill, all the congressmen were there. Bill Scott was elected then by then to the House. He replaced Judge Howard Smith who had been there for 100 years.

Speaker 1: 26:57

But anyway, I get back to the hotel and unbelievably, I landed at the same time that Tom Dewey was there and we both walked in and I hadn't paid any attention. I walked in with this gentleman and we both walked in the elevator at the same time and I looked and I said, oh my God, that's Thomas Dewey. And I said, governor Dewey, that was a great speech you made today at the convention. But you didn't tell us who you were supporting for the nomination. And he looked at me in that gruff voice and he said young man, I don't think it's right for me to wish my enemies on anybody. I am not going to publicly make a choice. And that's a quote I thought was very, very great of Thomas E Dewey.

Speaker 1: 27:45

And I actually bumped into him at another time at Billy McMurtry. You knew Alex McMurtry, oh yes, alex's brother, billy got married in Washington and he married Cecil Andrus's daughter, the Minnesota Mining, minnesota Milling Company, and he owned the Seaview Hotel, cecil Andrus. That year, in 1968, he contributed both to Hubert Humphrey from Minnesota and Richard Nixon. He was listed as a big donut to both candidates. So he hedged his bet. Well, when his daughter, Sandy, married Billy, billy McMurtry, the wedding reception was at the Mayflower Hotel. At the Mayflower Hotel and all the Washington politics, the power of Minnesota, I mean the wealthiest people in Minnesota, everyone was that. Everyone was that Ann Landis, thomas E Dewey. It was fascinating people to people watch at that convention, the convention, the wedding reception, it was like a convention.

Speaker 1: 28:51

But I was honorary assistant sergeant at arms. I was appointed Hazel Barger of Roanoke. She was a Republican National Committee woman for years and she appointed me as a Honorary Assistant Sergeant at Arms and I still have my little medallion. I wore on a ribbon and I could get passes anywhere and I still have the little certificate signed by Ray Bliss, chairman of the National Republican Committee. They appointed two honorary sergeants of arms from each state and each of the National Committee men and National Committee women got a choice to make that.

Speaker 1: 29:25

Hazel Barger was a very interesting and a wonderful leader in the Republican Party. She was from Roanoke. Her husband died many, many years ago, preceded her. Her husband died many, many years ago, preceded her and she was dating and escorted by an old professor I think it was from Roanoke College and he was a very interesting gentleman. But Hazel Barger was really a leader and one of the first women leaders in the Republican Party. I guess the first would have to be Peggy Gieson who served in one of the first women to serve in the House of Delegates.

Speaker 3: 30:04

Was that Peggy Gieson's mother?

Speaker 1: 30:06

That was Peggy Gieson, the only time we've had a mother and son both serve in the same body, the House of Delegates, and they represented different districts. One was Radford, the other one was Augusta County. But think about Thomas E Dewey, the funny story. Mr Dewey was sort of a short man, snarky and a mustache, and Alice Roosevelt told the best stories about him.

Speaker 3: 30:34

She said Now for our listeners Alice Roosevelt was Theodore Roosevelt's daughter.

Speaker 1: 30:39

That's right, she was Teddy Roosevelt's daughter. She married Congressman Longworth the Longworth building's name. For God. She lived to be 100, I think in Washington she hasn't been dead that many years really. And she remarked once Thomas E Dewey always reminded me of that little man on top of the wedding cake. But that was my experience with the Republican National Committee of votes. But Hazel Barger. Back to Hazel Barger. Hazel Barger was the first woman to run for a statewide office named by a state party, a national party. She ran for lieutenant governor in 1961. She was nominated for lieutenant governor to run with Clyde Pearson for governor in 61.

Speaker 1: 31:31

Hazel K Barger and Leon Owens was a lawyer from Honecker, virginia. A handsome young lawyer from Honecker ran for lieutenant governor. Now I brought Leon Owens through Franklin County on a tour. I was in his campaign and we stopped in Rocky Mountain, saw some people. Then I brought him to Ferrum Campus and we campaigned in that Ferrum-Calloway area. He and his wife Monica, they were a wonderful, wonderful couple. I had a good time taking him around and he made an appearance and we met with the young Republicans at Ferrum College and we met with the young Republicans at Ferrum College Later on. Well, that would have been the fall of 61 when he was running for attorney general. But Hazel Barr most people forget. When you ask the first woman to run statewide, they would think of Mary Sue Terry, probably, as a winner. Well, hazel didn't win, but she certainly gave it a state shot. That's interesting. I did not know that. I still have the little campaign button Pearson, barger Owens Wow.

Speaker 3: 32:42

See speaking real quickly on the 68th Convention. How did the Virginia delegation break?

Speaker 1: 32:48

Was it mainly for Nixon or, oh, it was overwhelming for Nixon, Overwhelming for Nixon, the Mainly for Nixon, or oh, it was overwhelming for Nixon, overwhelming for Nixon. The great part of that campaign, the Rockefeller campaign in Virginia, was quite an experience. I stirred up a lot of trouble during those days but a lot of publicity. It was my ability to get the publicity. Our mayor of the city of Richmond at that time was Phil Bagley and Phil Bagley said to me Phil, I want you on my campaign, on my staff, to help me as the mayor of the city, and he loved publicity. He said anybody can get as much out of a dead horse as you getting out of Nelson. Rockefeller I want on my team. And so I did do some work with him.

Speaker 1: 33:37

But the Rockefeller campaign was interesting. Money was not the object of doing things. I chartered a plane once. We had a meeting in Washington at Harris, reeves and Rivercomb Law Office, onman Avenue, 1750 Pennsylvania Avenue and right at the catacomb, of course, from the White House Executive office building we were straight across from the executive office building and I remember in that conference room Al Abrams was the campaign manager for the East Coast, I guess for the whole director. He was a New York lawyer, a great man and very gruffy, and we were thinking, rockefeller wanted to meet the Virginia Dynasties and he wanted to come to Williamsburg, colonial Williamsburg. So I was in charge of arranging this thing. And he says where can we land a plane? We need to turn the plane. And I says, well, piedmont flies, and they were just putting those new 737s into service. They had not gone into commercial service yet.

Speaker 1: 34:38

So my job that day was to go down to Hall and get the receptions to get them online and, not least, an airplane to fly the delegates around the state. And we started in Bristol and picked up Leonard. Hall was a delegate to the convention in Williamsburg. The Kenton Phoenix was elected and the district selected the delegates, but Rockefeller was going to meet him in Williamsburg. He wanted to come to the Williamsburg Lodge because their residence is there, everything else down the street. The residence is there, everything else down the street.

Speaker 1: 35:13

So anyway, I arranged a plane and we started flying in Bristol. We came to Kirshenberg, landed the plane, picked up the delegate from up the hangar One hangar than the one that's in the Senate now was in the Senate. We stopped at every little airport, picked up a delegate or two, the one to be flown in, and then flew into Newport News and so they had this big airplane and we were just flying around the state. And then on the next morning I arranged his leave and I said if you want to get on this plane, len Holton. I even talked to the Nixon people. Holton was a big head of the Nixon campaign in Virginia. He and Deutsch warned him, who later became federal judge.

Speaker 3: 36:08

Right right.

Speaker 1: 36:09

And I told Len when I said if you want to be in that plane you better be downstairs, it was 8 o'clock, my brother was getting married here and so I said I've got to be back. I was supposed to be missed. Man well, rockefeller messed up everything for me a little. But when I landed my parents picked me up. But it was in the field. There were like three people Jim Turk me, len Halton and Cazel Barger got off the plane at Woodrum Field. Then he went on then to drop off Leonard Hall out at Lincoln. He was the only one left on the plane. But those were what was very interesting.

Speaker 1: 36:51

And Lionel Hampton, the band leader, played a lot for the Rockefeller campaign. Later he came to Richmond for Nixon and played at the last of the old Tantella Garden party we had there for Richard Nixon. I think the next week they knocked the building down. Lionel Hampton was very much. He played at all the things.

Speaker 1: 37:15

Henry Kissinger was the other person. I met and attended a luncheon with Henry Kissinger. He was Nelson Rockefeller's foreign affairs advisor, that's right, and my friend Maren Harrison. They represented a lot of things in their law office. They were written once as the best law firm in Washington DC powerful law firm. They were all dabbling into one thing or another and a lot of them Reva Cohn went on to be a judge. Mayer and Harrison never did. I think one of them went on to be an ambassador and they were split in that law firm. Who they were supporting? Some Nixon, some Rockefeller. Well, marion was Rockefeller.

Speaker 1: 38:00

I have a picture of Rockefeller which you will see my place sometime is flocked by the Secret Service. That was the other great part of working that closely with the campaign. The Secret Service always referred to me as the political unit. When they came to Williamsburg they were the protective unit and O'Rourke was ahead for Rockefeller attempts. He was in John Kennedy's and I went down and had dinner with the Secret Service to map out the plans and they were very, very much worried You'd had the Kennedys killed, martin Luther King killed. I can't remember if he was shot at that time or not. I was 72. Yeah, that was later, but it was a horrible situation there and Rockefeller wanted to be a barbecue on the lawn of the lodge. Well, every room in that hotel that side faced out onto that garden and they said we have got to check every room. They got to know. We want to know who is staying in every room that faces that whole perimeter and that was a nightmare for them. And, as he says, they told me an old orc was telling the stories about with the Kennedys and how great John Kennedy was and how friendly he was to the Secret Service. And he said when John was born his son John we were walking along that alleyway by the Rose Garden from the living quarters to the Oval Office. He said he gave us all cigars that morning after John was born.

Speaker 1: 39:45

He was in Houston when the president was shot in Dallas. He was in Houston waiting for his arrival in Houston, which of course never happened. But he said I was in Houston, we were preparing in Houston for his arrival in Houston at that time. But working then was very interesting. They said preparing in Houston for his arrival in Houston at that time, but working with them was very interesting. They said you're the doorkeeper and you'll have state trooper with you and you'll have a secret service agent with you and if anyone is not supposed to be there, you're the one that's going to tell us that they're not coming.

Speaker 1: 40:15

What an experience it really was working and meeting all those people to see what goes behind the scene. And the other celebrity politician I met there and I told you about it was John Lindsay. That was the first time I met Mayor Lindsay and he was at the Rockefeller, as we call it, the hot room, where everything is in the back room, where everything is going on, and they had the old key code punch door and there's I'm coming up to go to the end and here's John Lynch and he can't get in. So I punched the code and let him into the work room section that day and I got to meet him and found out that his wife was a Virginian section that day and I got to meet him and found out that his wife was a Virginian, she was from Fairwickburg, and he informed me that his father-in-law was buried in Hollywood Cemetery in Richmond.

Speaker 1: 41:10

The other thing I guess about that convention that still sticks out in my mind, after all the political troubles discussed, you know, the assassinations how are they going to make it the most safe? And especially, that was right after the Chicago debacle With the Democrats, with the Democrats at Grant Park. The Republicans were very smart to move to Miami because it was harder for the students and protesters to get. There were very few protests. I didn't see any, hardly any. Jesse Jackson showed up with the Poor People's March. He had a mule and a wagon and about 10 people. Well, clarence Towns, who was African-American from Richmond and working with the Republican National Committee, he invited them all up for lunch in the Fountain Blue Hotel and that was the end of the Pro People's March and I never saw them again. But that was about the only thing that happened then.

Speaker 1: 42:07

But to make this the most secure, I thought, whoa, this is going to be interesting. But you went through a gate and you had to get stamped, like you did going to a nightclub or something with the old ink. And you had to get stamped like you did going to a nightclub or something with the old ink. The young kids figured it out in about 15 minutes. If we turn around, come back out the other side, we can stamp more people. Then they go through the part where there's a pass if you've been the return pass and they fill the hall. And they couldn't figure it out. Here's David Ringolo. There's more people here than I've ever seen at this convention. It is a mob scene down there and the secure. When he found out about how they'd done it, he got a great chuckle out of the most secure convention on the face of the earth.

Speaker 3: 42:56

It's amazing, amazing history, cl, and in that convention I guess Governor Rockefeller really was the bigger. If there was a big threat, it wasn't a big threat, but a threat to Nixon being nominated.

Speaker 1: 43:06

Well, he did pick up the feud on the Nixon. People had it down, so pat. They let everybody know. They let their people know the people from Wyoming you will be the one that puts us over. They're going to let it go all through the things. And people in I know my friends in Richmond watching. They said if when you come to Virginia and Virginia passed didn't vote on the first go around, everybody my good friend and colleague at Orange Mountain said I understand. He said what is Sigmund doing down there now to stir up trouble for Rockefeller? Virginia is passing Well. Mrs Sprinkle is still holding out, I think, on how she's going to vote. She was the last holdout on who and after she voted David Brinkley called her name on national television and said now we know how Mrs Sprinkle voted.

Speaker 3: 44:08

That's amazing. Let's shift gears for a moment and talk about your journey to the capital city of Virginia, Richmond, and as you started your career with Owens Miner and how, through that experience, how that type of business has evolved as well.

Speaker 1: 44:25

Oh, yes, that was another. Well, every phase and everything I've done in life has been fun. My interest has also been hobbies and my hobbies have been interests of mine basically. And when I went to RPI it was RPI before it was VCU I loved it. I loved the city. Also, I was at the General Assembly all the time when it met and I was still working.

Speaker 1: 44:51

I got more time working for United Press International. I worked every Friday. I was getting a nice steady check Every Friday night. My job at UPA was to get the high school football scores and get them online. You were busy, yeah, every Friday night. That's what I did for about two and a half three hours and there was no cell phone. So you had to wait for a stringer to call in the scores. And there's only one phone booth at every athletic stadium at a high school football field and if somebody's on it you can't get the call. And I had a great old big bureau manager. He waved and could yell like Lou Grant. He may have even kept a bottle in a guest drawer, I don't know, but anyway I had to do that. But that was what I did at RPI.

Speaker 1: 45:39

I majored and entered in the School of Business. It was a whole new experience that school, because they had a huge school of fine arts. It was one of the greatest art schools. They had a school for social work and that's how it was founded for nurses, degrees in nursing and occupational therapy and social work. Social work is they educated a lot, so they have still to stay a huge school of social work. But there was a school of business. There was a school of the sciences, but the arts and drama and social schools was probably're strong suits at that time. Dr Oliver was the president and he was a great, great funny guy, very charismatic, and I remember one thing it brought it was a bigger school. That brought. It wasn't a huge school but and we had a lot of day students. So I really got we had a lot of day students. So I really got to know a lot of Richmond people.

Speaker 1: 46:46

You had a lot of older students because they were on the GI Bill. You know the Vietnam students. Everybody was a student. But World War II students, korean War students, people who went to Korean War, and then it was going back to school. They had a GI Bill. So we had a lot of mature students, may I say. Then we had some like me, but it was mostly a lot of.

Speaker 1: 47:11

It was a very mature school and I lived right on Franklin Street, 808, west Franklin, which was a beautiful old home. There were 20 of us guys that lived in that. It was like a fraternity and those days I was telling my brother, I was talking to him this morning. I stayed at his house last night. We were having coffee on his porch this morning and I said you know, when I went down we were talking the cost of schools and he was talking about his grandchildren. They're in the Christian heard school and how much a cost is going to be for them to go, whether they're going to send them to a public school or continue there, and the cost of private schools. And I said it's gotten outrageous. I mean in Richmond to go to St Christopher's and Clemson it's $40,000 a year now.

Speaker 1: 47:57

That's right. But when I went and I said when I went it fell. I forget what the tuition was. It wasn't that much because I was a day student a few hundred dollars. But when I went to Guy it was still. I paid the rent for this beautiful home I lived in and there we had two maids to change our beds and do our laundry, for the bed laundries. They furnished our linens for our beds and towels, and two maids and one in the afternoon. Since there was no cell phones or anything and we didn't have phones, in our room there was a pay phone on this beautiful panel wall. We had a maid that sat there and took our messages in the evening and if my mother wanted to look for me she'd call there to see me and she said oh, he's fine, he's gone somewhere, he's here. So they were like our reporting system back to the parents and kids. Today they're laughing at me for that. But you know the school at that time was made fun of as being a second-class school, but it was very good. The school is not so much about the student who wants to learn. It's not what you learn when you're in school. It's what you learn later in your ability to continue learning. But it was a great school.

Speaker 1: 49:13

I was active in the political things. I was actually into the business. Fraternity followed the campus, val Lambert and some things. So I was active in campus there and I was working and finally, by transferring you lose a lot of courses. So I went on to do a mixture of part-time and a lot of night classes.

Speaker 1: 49:42

But I was working part-time for A&J Hospital Supply and Richmond Private Ambulance Company. We had the private ambulance. The rest of them did the people who were in emergency situations, the old allied ambulance. But we did private. We had the private patients that were transported. I remember driving to New York to transport a patient later to New York that would have been in an accident and going back home. So I drove her to New York and we had the C&O contract for the ambulance business.

Speaker 1: 50:14

I'd package the medical supply stuff one day and then you'd get an ambulance call. I'd go pick up someone and go to that and that's how I learned every street in Richmond Doing that. And they had a C&O. The C&O hospital was in Covington and C&O that's where the C&O ran through Richmond, the old coal train, chesapeake and Ohio Railroad yes, they went through Richmond. The NNW went on the other side of the river James River, from Lynchburg down to Norfolk for their coal Right and it's still that same way. Same way, but we would have someone needing vacation to be transported to the C&O Hospital in Covington. We would take them on an ambulance up to Covington, but most of the people we've taken to the drying out places at Central State.

Speaker 3: 51:11

That may have to be another podcast. Let me ask you a few questions about your activities with the Sons of the Revolution, which I'm proud to be a part of. That largely thanks to your efforts in checking my genealogy.

Speaker 1: 51:26

Yes, I am a member of the Society of the Sons of the Revolution, the Virginia Society. I'm the registrar so I check and do the genealogy for that. So I do the genealogy for the sons and I do the checking of the signing office, the registrar that your ancestor is qualified. The Sons of the Revolution and the Sons of the American Revolution are two different organizations. The SAR, the Sons of the American Revolution, you could have given aid or done some participation in a patriotic service or served in some civil office. That would qualify you for that.

Speaker 1: 52:05

For the sons of the revolution you had to actually be in the military service, which could have been the Continental line, the state line or the militia. Most of this area is militia. There were some that went to Valley Forge and became members of the Continental troops at Valley Forge from this area. But it's very interesting with the Revolutionary War it's doing that. It's a great organization. The Virginia Society has 650 members, which is one of the third largest society in the American States societies. And also I run the national headquarters. I'm three days a week at the General Society headquarters as assistant to the general president of the Sons of the Revolution, so I'm pretty busy and all.

Speaker 3: 52:53

See where is the headquarters.

Speaker 1: 52:55

It's in Colonial Williamsburg. It is in the William III barn, a stable, and it's a little big building behind the William Bird House. It's bordered by Francis Street and Boundary and Henry. It's sitting in the parking lot. It's very hard. A lot of people have trouble finding it, especially FedEx, but it's back there and it was once a carriage house. It was a stable Because still the old hay loft is upstairs adding now and it's still referred to as the barn, the stable in Colonial Williamsburg. But it's a nice little office.

Speaker 1: 53:38

I'm the only one there, so during COVID I could go three days a week to my office. I was the only person in the building and one of the few people in Williamsburg. But it's a nice little office. I'm the only one there. So during COVID I could go three days a week to my office. I was the only person in the building and one of the few people in Williamsburg and that parking lot, p6, which is usually very busy for tourists and people working in Colonial Williamsburg and Merchant Square especially. Sometimes it'd be my car and one other car. There would be two cars.

Speaker 1: 54:00

Someone called one day and said what is moving in Williamsburg? And I said the only thing I've seen move since I've been talking to you is a bird passed by my window. But no, that is very interesting to do that work and to help promote that. And my ancestors were from Franklin County that I used Lieutenant Thomas Jones, which was in the Calloway section. My other we have my cousin Dickie Smith, who lives in Richmond but he was with the Attorney General's Office all his career. I did his research from the other side of my family and Gideon Smith served in the Henry County Militia. See, frank County was not even formed until after the Revolutionary War, that's right, and so we were either Henry or Bedford County Militias and the Henry County Militia was pretty much by that time our area was in the Henry County Militia. I don't know how they ever kept up with all the drawings of the lines and where you were in those days.

Speaker 3: 54:59

Well, and with the 250th anniversary approaching, in 2026, the Suns will be active.

Speaker 1: 55:08

In 25 next year. See, it's the beginning of the war at Bunker Hill, April of April, the 19th 1775. That's right.

Speaker 3: 55:21

So, as we approach, even next year.

Speaker 1: 55:24

There'll be a lot going on. We're doing our triennial in Philadelphia this October. The national meeting will be in Philadelphia October 3rd through the 5th and they're playing a lot. The American Revolutionary War Museum, the big, big one, is in Philadelphia. We'll be having part of our activities, meetings will be in Constitutional Hall and it's going to be a great historic city to visit. I'm very easy to connect if anyone is interested in becoming a member of the Sons of the Revolution. I'm thinking very hard now working to form a chapter, the Andrew Lewis chapter in Roanoke. So we'll have something west of 29, the Lynchburg, franklin County, roanoke, all the way to Bristol which, and especially the Blacksburg Charlottesville area is close, to have that area as an Andrew Lewis chapter and have at least one or two events, like a nice luncheon for Andrew Lewis Day in Roanoke.

Speaker 3: 56:26

That's wonderful. You might want to give your email address if you're interested in letting people reach out to you.

Speaker 1: 56:33

You may. Yes, if you go online to SR1776.org, that is the national headline, srvirginiaorg is the Virginia website and you can contact me as the registrar, email me through either one of those, but especially the Virginia SRrvirginiaorg, you can send me an email.

Speaker 3: 57:07

Well, CL, thank you so much for being our guest today on Virginians of Essence. We really appreciate you being here. We covered a lot of ground. I feel like we have to maybe have another show. There's a lot more else to talk about.

Speaker 1: 57:16

Well, there's always something in the history of Southwest Virginia. Well, there's always something in the history of Southwest Virginia and I am always available to especially on the Revolutionary War things to help people with genealogy through any historical society that wants me to come and bring brochures and do something in their organizations, I'll be happy to do it.

Speaker 3: 57:35

Well, I'll be letting folks know that. Again, thank you so much. Thank you for joining us on our podcast Virginians of Interest. Today we want to thank our host, blue Ridge PBS. If you like what you hear, please like and subscribe.

Speaker 2: 57:49

Thank you for listening to the Virginians of Interest podcast. To hear other episodes of this podcast, head to virginiansofinterestcom.