Speaker 2: 0:12

And now from the Blue Ridge PBS Studios in Roanoke, virginia. It's the Virginians of Interest Podcast, with your hosts Brian Campbell and Carthen Curran.

Speaker 1: 0:22

Hello, my name is Brian Campbell. Welcome to the Virginians of Interest Podcast. I'm here with my friend today, carthen Curran, and a special guest, the former First Lady of Virginia, susan Allen. Hello, susan Welcome.

Speaker 3: 0:32

Hey Brian, hey Carthen, Thank you for being with you all and congrats on the success of your podcast. You all are doing great things around Virginia.

Speaker 1: 0:39

Oh, thank you so much. Thank you Before we get into it, Susan, for those folks who may not know you that well, tell us a little bit about yourself.

Speaker 3: 0:48

Well, I'm a daughter of a Marine pilot who was raised mainly in Virginia, although I was born in Florida while he was doing training.

Speaker 3: 0:58

But I grew up outside of Charlottesville, near Crozet. When I was away in college, my mom sent me an absentee ballot to vote for a young man running for the House of Delegates. That's how I ended up getting to know who my future husband would be, with none of that in mind when I voted for him. But after marrying him or going to school in South Carolina and coming home and working in the tourism industry and convention and hotel sales, I married George and began a life of an even greater adventure than anybody could have imagined. So we've lived in Richmond, after being in the governor's mansion, stayed on the river there in Chesterfield and then, when he went to the US Senate, lived in Northern Virginia near Alexandria, and now we live in Virginia Beach. So we are living the good life we have lived everywhere and this is such a fun spot. So that's a little skinny minute on where I, how I have ended up here and where I've come from.

Speaker 1: 1:57

We'll probably get into more of that later Carthen.

Speaker 4: 1:59

Thank you, brian, and again I was going to ask the after George's historic victory in 1993 for the for the governorship which I'm proud Now I know, brian is that we were part of a small part of that victory and wanting him to be the next governor, during that transition time between the election and inaugural, can you tell me what? You probably already had some ideas about what focus you wanted to have, different areas of interest that you had being first lady. Can you describe some of those? I know I was part and I was honored to be in the Allen administration as a member of the Virginia tourism board, knowing your passion and you were such a such a dynamic supporter of that industry and a very important one in Virginia. But can you describe some of some of your thoughts during that transition period and when he became governor? Then you had your path of interest that you pursued.

Speaker 3: 2:57

Well, you know, that's the million dollar question. How do you choose what you want to do with a job that comes along because of your husband's occupation? I think and let me preface that by saying we couldn't have done it without y'all. We needed people like you who were part of the ground game, who really wanted a change in Virginia and saw a future leader in George. It was just a remarkable campaign in 1993 and we could spend a whole hour talking about that. But you know, Carthen, George and I were very strategic and never thinking beyond election day. So during the campaign I don't think I ever allowed myself to believe that I would have to be thinking about what I would do as first lady. My goal in 93 was to make sure people knew who George Allen was, what he stood for and why he should be elected, because he was going to be the best governor Virginia ever had in my opinion. But I knew that if that happened I would be given the opportunity to showcase and highlight things not just of interest to me but things that were important in Virginia, and I will say that, growing up in the greater Charlottesville area, tourism is a big industry and my mother had been a docent at Ashlawn for many, many years and when George was in the House of Delegates when we first got married, I too worked at Ashlawn as a docent giving tours of James Monroe's home and loved that, worked with the Charlottesville Historical Society giving tours as well, and so you know that whole area really fostered a passion for promoting tourism in Virginia and how important it was to the economy. When he went to Congress, I continued that effort and trying to promote the whole congressional district and working with Republican women's clubs or other organizations on highlighting great things that were occurring in the regions of their state. I also had a passion for people, working with people who had been affected by cancer. Like nearly everyone, my family had been touched by cancer, and so I worked with the American Cancer Society in trying to promote healthy living, bringing greater awareness to breast cancer awareness, breast cancer issues. And then also remembering that we were a very young family.

Speaker 3: 5:25

I was 32 when George was elected governor and we had two small children. At the time I was really interested in what was happening to children and what was important in their world making good decisions, how to get them on the right path, Education, which was a big issue for George. So what I did really dovetailed with a lot of the things George had in mind that he wanted to do as governor. When he was talking about economic development, my portion of helping with that was pushing tourism, because that was our number two industry in Virginia and it was my passion and my love. When he was talking about education, I was really interested in making sure that all of our children were going to get the tools they needed to succeed in life, and it didn't matter where they lived in Virginia, but it was important that everybody had standards that they could achieve that would then carry them on to their next level of interest in their lives.

Speaker 3: 6:19

And then the health issues, which I then parlayed into health and wellness because, selfishly, I like to play, I like to be outdoors, I like to do things outdoors, I like to make my children be outdoors and I'm happy to say they all love the great outdoors still to this day.

Speaker 3: 6:37

But I went around the state promoting wellness simply because I wanted to play. When George the one thing I did ask him to allow me to do as far as an appointment I said why don't we reinvigorate the governor's council on physical fitness, similar to the president's council on physical fitness that his dad had served on, and I don't know why, but Virginia's council had kind of dissolved. But I wanted to take it on to promote fitness, along with my good friend Denise Austin, and again it just gave us a great excuse to travel together, to go into schools, to show kids that being fit was fun and really just to play. Many people who were around the capital or the governor's mansion would often see us outside playing with our children, whether it was playing spot or playing hide and go seek or playing on force how to go cart. We had bikes or touch football.

Speaker 3: 7:40

Yeah, football football football to, and you know we would engage our security detail so they would be outdoors playing with us too. But even after that my kids will tell you that in order to eat dinner they had to shoot 25 baskets before coming into dinner. I wanted them to get the willies out and so it's always been a part of our family and again I'm just eternally grateful that as First Lady I could kind of shine a light on Virginians and their fitness and fun and wellness.

Speaker 1: 8:09

Well, you know we were talking about this before that the role of the First Lady sort of as women became more. You know the role of women changed in the 80s and 90s. So the role of First Lady is different today than it was, you know, 50 years ago. So what prepared you? It was I presume there's some camaraderie amongst former First Ladies. Did you have to go to school? I mean, you said you didn't talk about it. So once the election night happened, and suddenly you're there what prepared you for what was going to be your portfolio?

Speaker 3: 8:38

Well, you know, I guess one of the things I considered somewhat of a blessing is that there had not been a First Lady of Virginia for four years prior to.

Speaker 3: 8:48

George being elected. Governor Wilder was a single governor and that allowed me to say, hey, whatever traditions there were in the past, I don't necessarily have to keep up with. Because I'm coming in as somebody so young, I can create my own initiatives, ideas and the way I want to run things, which really gave me a great sense of freedom you had at that time, in the early 90s, you also had Hillary Clinton as the national First Lady, kind of condemning traditional roles that women were playing. For instance, she said I don't stay home and bake cookies, which then you know I kind of use that on the campaign trail is I don't mind staying home and baking cookies, but I'm really going to spend a lot of time out here getting my husband elected and making sure you know about his issues abolishing parole, economic development, higher education standards, et cetera. So don't discount what other talents I might have, even though I find joy still being at home and baking cookies with our children around. So it was a time of transition. Having said that, yes, when you are elected, there are several governor's meetings that occur around the state, around the country, and you do get to meet other First Ladies or First Gentlemen as they there may happen to be, in fact, in New Jersey elected Christy Todd Whitman. So her husband and I were the newbies on the block, so to speak. And but you get ideas from these other First Bouses, which, for instance, in Virginia. I went around Virginia planting pink dogwoods. Not only is it our state tree, but I wanted to do it around hospitals or libraries and communities to commemorate those who had been diagnosed with breast cancer and to memorialize those who had lost their lives. So I got that idea from the First Lady of Ohio. It wasn't a new idea but I was so grateful, you know, in meetings we shared these ideas and we could take them to our own states. So that was helpful.

Speaker 3: 10:57

I did admire Jeannie Bulliles and her passion and love of literacy and what she did with that. Prior to her, linda Robb, too, had worked with RIF, which had been a national reading program that her mother had started as First Lady. So you know you could go back and look at what other First Ladies had done. In fact I was thinking about this the other day Governor Dalton's wife and also Governor Godwin's wife had produced cookbooks, which was a very traditional thing to do. I didn't want to do that because they had, you know, done that previously and it was not something.

Speaker 3: 11:37

I'm not a great cook, true confession. I do feed my family. They don't like to eat out, they prefer to eat at home. So I've had to scrape things together my whole life preparing meals, but it just wasn't one of the things I wanted to do. I also was kind of hesitant about hosting traditional teas because I didn't want to be pigeonholed as somebody who hung around the mansion just hosting tea parties.

Speaker 3: 12:03

So I went out and I cut ribbons at roller coasters and I rode horseback to promote our you know a horse industry and rode my bike on the trails to promote our rails to trails in Virginia and went over to different parks to highlight, you know, our agriculture industry.

Speaker 3: 12:23

So I just wanted to be out and about, very selfishly I guess, but I also wanted to highlight all the cool things outside of the governor's mansion and meanwhile, because we had small children, we did a ton of fun, cool kid related things. We had the first May Day party that I think they'd had in a hundred years, that big round fountain in front of the governor's mansion. We asked the poor groundskeeper folks to try to put a pole in there so that we could do a traditional May Day pole dance, you know, with kids and streamers and all of that. It was really fun, but I think it was quite a challenge. We also did big Halloween parties and had just tons of decorated pumpkins and used the governor's mansion, the tunnel between the mansion and the outside carriage house to have a spooky hallway for kids to go through. So we incorporated a lot of kids activities at the mansion, which was a blast, but otherwise I had serious business to do outside the house.

Speaker 4: 13:26

Two quick questions to follow up on Bronwyn's question. Susan, I'm just curious, when you came into the mansion, just what advice did, for example, to Catherine Godwin and Jinks Hulton provide you? And there, because Catherine was unique, she's the only First Lady in modern times to be there twice.

Speaker 3: 13:49

Yes.

Speaker 4: 13:50

And of course I know I think both were very supportive of you and George becoming the next first couple of the Commonwealth. I was curious. Mrs Godwin and Mrs Hulton I was a big fan of.

Speaker 3: 14:03

You know, I have such fond memories of Catherine Godwin coming to the governor's mansion because that was one of the first private lunches that George and I hosted shortly after his election and being sworn in, I should say, and I walked around the governor's mansion with Mrs Godwin and wanted to get her view and her memories and it was really very sad. She basically said and maybe this is putting it to I don't know to succinctly, but really she wished that they had not run for a second term. You know, they lost their daughter during the second term and down here at Virginia Beach actually, her daughter was struck by lightning or standing next to somebody in whatever. It was a tragic, tragic way to go, and but she talked about how hard it was to go back to the mansion and not have the sleepovers that they had had with her daughter, I guess in the first term maybe it's when her daughter had passed and how everything the second time around was almost stale and more difficult. They, they too, had quite a different scenario when they were there.

Speaker 3: 15:21

You know, I think, serving cocktails at five o'clock, like the Holtons had done, the Dalton's had done, that was sort of the norm. You would invite members of the General Assembly over to have cocktails at five will shoot. George and I weren't drinking at five, we had kids and if we were home for dinner at six we had a quick dinner and then we studied for our speeches for the next day and, you know, tucked our kids in and and even if we were entertaining we often had our children come downstairs and interrupt our meal around 839 and say goodnight, mom and dad, and that was sort of our cue to our guests that the evening was over. We weren't going to linger long and you know, have drinks late into the night because we had other things we had to do. We took our jobs very, very seriously.

Speaker 3: 16:07

But anyway, catherine Godwin bluster heart she was just wonderful and you know described what they did in the carriage house and how they had that set up and for tours and and things like that. We basically used it as a guest house. I think the Holtons used it as rooms for their children to stay out there, because there are funny stories about the Holton kids breaking loose, you know, from being staying out there. Same with the Dalton kids, I think so. You know, every family has a story and it's so interesting to live in that house and you. It's kind of like living in the apartment above the museum Right, you make use of the room upstairs, but you have people in your house almost all the time downstairs.

Speaker 4: 16:52

Well, you were the first couple to have small children for some time, long time, to go in the mansion. What surprised you when you, after being there for six months, live it in that house?

Speaker 3: 17:06

Well, there are some things that I guess I'll wait until a long time from now to write in a book. But you know, we always asked Ann Holton about growing up there because her father apparently heard ghosts and their story ghost stories from when the Holtons were there. I'm not sure we ever saw any, any anything, happen with ghosts, but we did have interesting things with the light fixtures and that could have been, you know, some type of another spirit causing that. I don't know. I was surprised that really we had a beautiful cozy space upstairs and yet yet during the day there were tourists downstairs all the time. So we would just, you know, remind our children you can't go running through the house barefooted, screaming, because you'd be running through school groups that are visiting. And the first time I would sit, sometimes at the top of the stairs eating his eating lunch together. He would get home early in the early days. He'd get home half day and we'd sit at the top of the stairs listening to the tour guides talk to the school groups that were visiting the mansion and listening to some of the tales that the docents would tell. For instance, some of the docents would have forgotten that a new family had moved in and they would be talking about governor Wilder living upstairs. You know I would go downstairs with folks after the tour group would leave and I'd say, well no, there's a new family here. See this little picture here over on the side. This is the new family. It was just. It was a magical, fun place to be.

Speaker 3: 18:44

As soon as we would step out the front door, the troopers, you know, would radio and step out with us. We put up a swing set for the children that had not been there, and when the kids would swing up high enough that people over the wall could see them, you'd hear clicks of cameras going. Security wasn't so thrilled about that. Our young children also figured out a real money making scheme. They figured if they could sell Magnolia leaves as an entry ticket to tour the mansion. They could make a little money, a little profit by living there. We had to straighten that out. They we told them that one right, and so then somebody made a big lemonade stand for them. So they had a legit business right there in front of the mansion selling lemonade.

Speaker 4: 19:25

I bought some.

Speaker 3: 19:27

Yes, thank you, carthen. That was a pretty good gig. All of our children have been great entrepreneurs since an early day, because we didn't pay them any allowance and yet we still gave them to worse and told them they had to earn. Earn a living another way.

Speaker 1: 19:41

Well, free enterprise was one of the governor's pillars, right, so they were just following the pillar.

Speaker 3: 19:45

Absolutely still is, still is.

Speaker 1: 19:47

Let me ask you a question, because I was watching the governor young can inauguration and they were talking on the thing about. There's this in Virginia, the tradition of the house gets turned over right after the swearing in. Right, I mean you sort of one body, one person moves out and the next person moves in. You had little kids, I mean. So how, I mean, did you, when y'all got elected, to just sit out with the kids and say, well, you know, dad's been elected and their lives are going to change? And then what was it like that day, you know, swishing into the, to the mansion.

Speaker 3: 20:15

It's so interesting and God bless all of those who work at the governor's mansion. Many have been there through many different governor's families and they work so quickly to change things over. But Between the election and the swearing in, you have November. Till January, you've got Thanksgiving in there, you have a governor's conference in there. Our first governor's conference was in Arizona, where I bought my inaugural gown, by the way and you've got lots of family activity going on. But, yes, you're also kind of deciding what are you taking from our, your home, to the governor's mansion, where there's not a lot of space.

Speaker 3: 20:53

And remember we lived in a log house outside of Charlottesville and earlysville on dirt and gravel roads, so we were switching lifestyles big time, and Tyler was in kindergarten and was going to need to switch from there to a new school, which I had to spend time searching as well. We put her out in short pump it because we had a friend who had moved from Charlottesville to short pump and they love that elementary and it ended up being a great elementary for us to. So I had to go through all of those personal things trying to get ready, and what happened is, though, two weeks prior to the swearing in, we have lots of lead up inaugural events. We had school group events, we had All sorts of things. I was doing a big tourism promotion and Williamsburg leading up to the inaugural to say, hey, new kid in town, we're going to be all about promoting Virginia everywhere. So we stayed at the Marriott Hotel, set up camp there so Tyler could start at her new school, for started at his new preschool. So we're operating out of the hotel.

Speaker 3: 21:58

George is concentrating on his inaugural speech and all the other events in between. We're trying to make sure we have the right outfits to wear to everything in between. And so inauguration day comes and you go to the room, the old Senate Chamber, and that's where you exchange keys. So we exchange keys with Governor Wilder. He gives you a key that you never use all four years because it's a beautiful big old key that goes to the front door of the mansion. But you never touch that key because security always has the door opening and closing for you. So it's a ceremony, it's lovely, happens each four, you know, every four years. And then you're seated and you, you know, wait for the inaugural festivities to end, after freezing out there in our case, especially because it was record cold.

Speaker 4: 22:50

It was cold, Very cold.

Speaker 3: 22:51

It was cold bitterly, bitterly cold and our sun was running 104 temperature that day. So so there we sit. Then we watched the parade on the other side of the Capitol. George signed the blue ribbon task force to look for waste in every single agency and he was his first act as governor. He couldn't wait to sign that. And when the parade ends, I think the VMI core cadets might have been the last unit in that parade.

Speaker 4: 23:16

That's right.

Speaker 3: 23:17

We walked to the governor's mansion door and we turn around to wave to everybody and step inside, and you know it was so exciting for our children. They run upstairs to see their room for the first time. They had never been in that house and we tell them we're going to be living upstairs. They run upstairs to their room and to do, the Butler who is still there, god love him had set up their beanie babies that we had brought from our log house to the Marriott. He had set them up on their bed so that they would feel right at home, and I'd marked them in boxes these are for us, these are Tyler's so that their rooms would be all set for them. And we go to our room, change clothes, try to warm up, greet all the family members who come in for a big meal, and then we get ready for that night, for the inaugural balls. And we had five balls. I don't know what we were thinking, but anyway, that was exciting too to go to all those different inaugural balls and then your final one. You're so exhausted you barely sleep.

Speaker 3: 24:19

And then we went to a church service on Church Hill the next morning, which I will say moved Mrs Allen to tears, more than anything I've ever seen. I mean, she just felt the emotion and love and passion. It was a great service. And then after that, after that church service, we all went back and ate and then finally kicked our shoes off for about 24 hours. And actually the next day I went and did a radio show at on on Church Hill and had to be escorted out by six police officers because Pita came and protested that I'd won a fur coat at the inauguration. So so in 17 degree weather, I wasn't going to let a gift that Mrs Allen had presented to me a fur coat go to waste. It seemed appropriate at that time. Since our inauguration I've been to many an inauguration presidential and state and all the other men and women I've seen in in fur coats didn't seem to get the grief that I got that year, but it was just fine.

Speaker 1: 25:24

It worked out.

Speaker 4: 25:26

I have to ask another mansion experience. When former British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher came on, when George was governor and you were First Lady and I was a capital square, that was just a magical. That was the first time since Winston Churchill had been to the capital in the mansion in 1946. So tell me about that and just that whole experience.

Speaker 3: 25:50

Gosh. Well, we admired her so much and she had such a fondness for George. I am so happy to tell you that too, we had been to 10 Downing. She just loved George. She thought he was a younger version of Ronald Reagan, and you know they had such a wonderful relationship. So it's quite a compliment and just a thrill to know that she was coming to the governor's mansion.

Speaker 3: 26:13

Here's another kid's story for you, though I was telling Tyler, who was in I don't know second or third grade by then Look, margaret Thatcher is coming to stay with us at the governor's mansion, where she was coming in, and she's going to speak to the Joint General Assembly and she's the smartest woman in the world. I'm sorry you're not coming home from school, but she's going to be here today. And Tyler said Mom, can she multiply 1349 times 59? You know that was her. You know measurement of a really brilliant woman. And I said oh, she's much more than that, tyler. It was great to receive her. She, her office, had many rules set up for the day. We could only allow 32 people at the state dining room table for her lunch that day. They asked that we invite certain key people. I hate to say that spouses were not included, for instance of the speaker and Senate majority leader and they, those wives, were calling the governor's mansion, given my staff, holy Heck. But it wasn't up to us. We did not determine the guest list that day, it was all Margaret Thatcher's office. So we we've abided by her her rules.

Speaker 3: 27:28

I also like to tell people this that when she arrived she had on a beautiful knit suit. It was in red and she ate lunch in that suit. She took a few pictures, she took a group shot. We were allowed a couple of clicks with with people who had worked in the governor's mansion and some, some of the folks who were at the mansion that morning as she walked in. After lunch she went upstairs and changed into the exact same outfit, in navy blue, to go over and address the general assembly, which I thought was a really savvy way to not, you know, worry too much about changing your jewelry up and all of that. And she looked good in the suit and it worked for her. But that's kind of a little aside that most people don't know. But George and I met, you know, met with her privately, and then we're so proud that she was here and thought it was important enough to come back, you know again, to be the first one since Churchill to address our joint general assembly. It was a fantastic day.

Speaker 4: 28:26

Amazing day.

Speaker 1: 28:27

Well, you know you said earlier that that was an interesting I didn't know about when you're in George's with the night before the next day. That you know we, when we interviewed him, he had a very ambitious agenda when he was governor yes, pearl abolition and welfare reform and economic development. He did make a joke once that he spent more time with the economic developer almost as much time with the economic development director as he did with you, meaning he was very committed to that agenda. But tell us about how that worked. I mean, it just seemed like because he had such an ambitious agenda and you were his literally his right hand person, so at night y'all would discuss it and then he would send you out. You were sort of the second half of the A team, I guess, right.

Speaker 3: 29:05

It was. You know it was again so fun and we did eight trade missions around the world and did I did a ninth myself to South Africa with a tourism focused right after Mandela had been elected and George and I, by the way, had been to South Africa when he was in the House of delegates on kind of an exploration on what their government was doing. And obviously it was a very difficult time in South Africa the first time we were there and I was really happy to go back and then meet with their tourism officials and others who were telling me how difficult it was to stand up their tourism industry with people who had never been in power. So that was really interesting. But all of our trade missions were fascinating.

Speaker 3: 29:53

I always said that I was hoping that we could go back to these countries as a tourist one day because when we were in country we often had the press with us, we had a lot of business leaders with us and we were there on business. There was really not time to sightsee much or do many things, but we were there focused on getting jobs in Virginia and oftentimes it worked for me to be able to promote tourism In France. I remember speaking to a group of tour operators who were all standing around smoking in the room smoking cigarettes, which just didn't happen many other places In Japan. I remember meeting with tour operators who they really just want to know about where they could golf in Virginia. That was their big, you know, push on when they sent tour groups to Virginia. I mean it was just fascinating.

Speaker 3: 30:45

When we were in Germany and George was meeting with a wonderful business opportunity, I was at the other end of the table working with them to see if they would provide for us a mobile mammography unit that we put in in Buckingham County, because so many of our rural patients were not willing to drive long distances to get mammograms, and we realized that that is kind of the gold standard and the easiest way to get early detection and to beat these cancers. And so, lo and behold, we came home with a double, a double win for that one. So it worked out really well and you know we would work ahead of time on these trade missions to make sure that they were going to be fruitful and beneficial for Virginia. When we were traveling together we would try to tie it in, but so often, so often we would be traveling separately. Our staffs would try to create different agendas for us, to work on different issues and ideas so that we could cover more territory around Virginia.

Speaker 1: 31:43

Well, let's get to that. So you had your own portfolio. He hadn't ambitious it. Those two ever conflicted. I mean, when you're comparing notes the night before, you've got a breast cancer thing. He's trying to reform welfare and abolish parole. So was that part of the scheduling? Was it simply here's what I've got, here's what you've got, what can we work on together? Or how did that all go?

Speaker 3: 32:02

I will say you guys might remember this story. One time Elizabeth Dole said that she had to have her scheduler meet with Bob Dole's scheduler to decide when she could announce when she was running for president. And I totally get that. My scheduler would sit in on the meetings with his scheduler so that we would avoid overlap and because I also would say there are some mandatory family obligations that he might need to attend. So whenever we could have a say in the schedule. And there's so many demands on your schedule as governor and first lady and it's hard to pick and choose and it's hard to not say yes to everything. So you need people who can say our priorities this month are XYZ. We've got to make sure that we're spending time sending you out to cover our priorities. Hopefully we can get back to ABC another time. So, yeah, it took a big team to try to make sure that we were all where we needed to be.

Speaker 4: 33:02

Susan, during your time in Georgia's time in the Senate, you carried on some of those goals and objectives and areas of interest while you were, while George was in the Senate.

Speaker 3: 33:18

Yes, thankfully your role as public servant doesn't have to end in Virginia and people have been so good to our whole family. Once you serve, I feel like the public really doesn't let you go and if you want to, you can still keep a really hefty schedule of activities, promoting and working on issues and agendas and ideas. Tourism has remained a love, and whether I did that, creating private groups I just took a group to Yorktown the other day, a group of women from Virginia Beach who had not been there in years or didn't know, weren't really thinking about the 250th anniversary coming up. So I said, all right, field trip, we're going to go to Yorktown, we're going to my friend who's on the board of the 250th celebration, is going to come and talk to us and we're going to reignite that passion for tourism in Virginia. So again, I've probably been really selfish because I do it all because I love Virginia and I love all of our historic sites and what we can do and promoting ecotourism and all of the outdoor activities we have. So that's always been easy.

Speaker 3: 34:29

Working on health issues has remained another interest and then politically trying to help a lot of candidates, and that's a big, big part of what George and I both do.

Speaker 3: 34:40

In the meantime, I wrote a book on Ronald Reagan, a children's book, and that is sort of the happy talk. I call it because everybody loves Ronald Reagan and it's a story about his life in general and somebody who grew up during the depression without any money but had big dreams and went on to become governor and president, and I think we've need to keep instilling these ideas in our young people and remind them they can do anything they want if they set goals for themselves, learn to read, expand their horizons, have a good work ethic, and so to be able to talk about Reagan on the trail is really fun and easy for me. But helping a lot of candidates has always been another passion and I've done my share through the years, whether I was chairing Women for McCain or Women for Romney or Women for whatever, what other candidates were running in Virginia, or working for a candidate specifically outright who are running for different offices in Virginia. So we like that. We want to keep Virginia strong and we want to keep Virginia with strong leadership.

Speaker 4: 35:46

Well, you've been a tremendous leader in all of those things and I'm really happy you brought up the 250th because that is a very important milestone for our country, and I know Jami Boskett at the Virginia Museum of History and Culture is one of those organizations that's really ramping up for the Commonwealth to celebrate that important milestone in our history. And your public service will continue in other areas. You were just appointed by Governor Yonkin to be on the Board of Visitors of Old Dominion University. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? I think Brian has some follow up about that appointment and your service on the ODE board.

Speaker 3: 36:22

Well, thank you for asking Such an honor to be asked to serve on the Board of Visitors. Several years ago Governor McDonald appointed me to the Board of Visitors of JMU and that was a wonderful opportunity. Our daughter had been a student there, graduated from there at the same time. Governor McDonald and Lieutenant Governor Bill Bowling's child they all graduated in the same class, so it was kind of fun to see them all at graduation. But serving on these boards is a really interesting way to learn a lot about higher ed.

Speaker 3: 36:55

My father had been one of the first community college professors at Piedmont Community College after his career in the Marine Corps, so I grew up really admiring and understanding the importance of continuing ed at any age and understanding it from a professor's point of view, and so I really love seeing what our great institutions of higher ed are doing throughout the Commonwealth, Moving down here and getting to know so many ODEU alum.

Speaker 3: 37:26

My brother went there. Actually knowing how important it is to the region. I was really, really honored to be asked to go on to that group of Board of Visitors. We've got a tremendous group of people serving already and I think ODEU is really on the cutting edge of what will be a fantastic future for them. Their merger with EVMS will make them a Health Sciences University, which is fantastic, and it's where we need to be. Any university that can do that in the country is building for the future. What they do with cybersecurity and offering degrees there, with data sciences, and what they've done with Teletechnet, which is something George started as governor and offering— online education, especially for our military, many of whom are going out to serve at sea or at other bases and they want to continue their education that they started at ODU.

Speaker 1: 38:23

Well, I've got the, because I do have a follow-up question. I grew up in the Toddwater area and Old Dominion was started, you know, as originally a part of William Mary and then it became sort of unsung in the 60s, primarily because of the industrial defense complex of Toddwater right. But now it is the newest ODU is the newest member of the family, what's called the Carnegie R1 Research Intensive, which is the highest level of research activity. So it is no longer just sort of a school that's supporting Toddwater, it is now a national player. How has that been a little different from James Madison being part of something that not only are you integrally tied to the economy of Toddwater but you're now able to play on a national level in the research area?

Speaker 3: 39:04

Well, that designation is so important, Brian. I'm glad you brought that up, because when you get that designation it really means that you are opening yourself up to extra grants that come from the federal government. That will really help assist as ODU and EVMS move forward and looking for all sorts of things in the medical field, and so the money is crucial and very important to getting in your strong professors. The amount of money it takes to run a lot of these experiments and the background on research and all of that, it's a very expensive proposition and you still want to keep tuition affordable for your students. Both of these schools are very different. They're kind of regional schools both of them, but ODU is still somewhat of a commuter school. There's still a lot of people who don't live on campus who go to ODU and so that makes the dynamic a little bit different, you know for that reason. But both of them, I think, are up and comers.

Speaker 3: 40:04

Jmu has a very strong passionate alum group. They really buy into their experience at JMU and what they've done. Jmu expanded their football stadium when I was there. They are doing great with their football. Odu started their football a few years ago and they're doing well and I think most people who, who you know, kind of poo poo the idea of sports on campus, forget that in today's world especially, education is more than just learning in a classroom. It's an entire experience. And so when you can provide these sporting activities or extracurricular activities that will enhance and attract students from all sorts of backgrounds, and in Mr Jefferson's idea of a liberal arts education, where you are bringing people from all sorts of backgrounds together for a learning experience, it just makes it better for everybody and makes their four years or extended period of time that much more valuable. And so, again, I think Virginia has a great higher ed system and both of these schools are real gems that we need to take credit for in Virginia because they are on the cutting edge of a lot of exciting things to come.

Speaker 1: 41:22

I've got to ask one question to go back to not necessarily politics, but politics. Before we came on the air today, we were just sort of having a chat about how different we know politics is different today, not necessarily in a good way, but campaigning is also dramatically different. So what was it? You know we, what was the day and the like of a candidate when George was either running for governor of the Senate and what was your role in that?

Speaker 3: 41:44

Oh golly, yes, it has changed. I think so much more is done over the airwaves and social media and when George ran for the Senate, obviously being online was crucial. When he ran for governor, not everybody had a computer in their house. In fact one of his opponents for governor created a VHS tape and was sending it to all potential delegates who were going to go to the Republican Convention the largest ever in Virginia, I might add to elect, you know, the candidate for the Republican Party for governor. And that person didn't realize that not every household had a VHS tape player. So some people were even making fun of that during the 93 campaign saying you know, I got this VHS tape. What is it? I don't even have a machine. So people didn't have computers, you didn't have a social media.

Speaker 3: 42:34

Each night in our log house we would get long scrolls of faxed press clips. If George was going to campaign and at the Cumberland Gap, he would get all the press clips that had happened during that week prior. You know news of the area. If I was going to Arlington I might get the press clips on the board of supervisors are arguing over this or city councils arguing over that. So we could kind of be prepared for the territory we were going to campaign in. But we both love campaigning. I campaigned full time every time he ran.

Speaker 3: 43:09

His congressional race was an interesting race because that was all of a sudden. It was a special election for Congress. He had been in the state house, state legislature, for nine years and I remember in July, coming home, I had a newborn I was carrying in my front pack and I had Tyler on my backpack. I think I was bringing groceries in the log house and George called and said, of course, on the house phone that was attached to the wall, hey, have you heard the news? They're, they're asking if I'm interested in running for Congress because our congressman, french lauder, was ill and was going to step aside and I said, sure, go for it. I mean that was the extent of our discussion on whether or not we were going to pick up and just run for Congress. And you know I was still nursing our infant and taking care of Tyler, but dad gone. I was going to be on the road full time.

Speaker 3: 44:04

We had lots of cities and counties we had to cover and it was a three month race and our district went from Albemarle County all the way up to Winchester, over to Hanover it was the largest congressional district in Virginia by land. My parents got in the act. We were sending them to Madison County while we were in different areas, you know. So we were all over. So that was kind of a trial by fire, like all hands on deck, forget your home life.

Speaker 3: 44:31

My father would campaign and say if Susan comes around, would you all please feed her, because I know she's not eating at home, she doesn't have time to cook, and a neighbor's bringing family food over for the kids. And we had a babysitter who was helping to feed the kids. But my dad, whenever he spoke for George on the campaign trail, he would always close by saying please send food to the family, knowing that we weren't eating, but it was. You know, we loved it. We loved loved being gone and we would give each other reports. We didn't have cell phones either. He wasn't going to spend money. He had one of the big shoehorn. You know cell phones. But my assistant and I, as we traveled the Commonwealth, we didn't have a cell phone and we didn't have GPS. She and I would just figure out where we were going and we'd meet up and do five, six, seven events in a day. I'd be gone for three, four or five days in a row and I'd see George Sunday. We'd try to be some on Sundays.

Speaker 1: 45:29

Well, your mom and dad were a big help and I know you said earlier about your dad at the community college. I know when I would see him working he knew everybody. Your dad was sort of like the mayor of the area and so many people. It was because he had so many students and people forget that at the community college he was as passionate about his education as he had been about being a Marine and that's hard. But a lot of people from a lot of walks of life were influenced by your dad.

Speaker 3: 45:51

Thank you. He loved people so much. And I still run into people who said there was a guy at the beach. George and I went over on the golf cart and had a hamburger at a place right down the road and a guy came up just to tell me he had been one of dad's students and how much he loved him. And so dad did have a big influence and I'll tell this story on myself.

Speaker 3: 46:11

One time I was racing down 64, I had a doctor's appointment in Charlottesville with the children and we were living in Richmond and I just had Brock and I still went back to our old family doctor in Richmond to have have broke, even though we were living in a different place and I was late for the appointment I got. I had to scurry down 64 and dag on if I didn't get stopped. And I'm begging, you know, please, please, please, don't give me a ticket today. And the trooper he goes. He looks at my license, he goes. Oh, I know who you are and I'm sheepishly going. Yes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry and I'm ready for him to say your governor Allen's wife, he goes. Your dad taught me he was my favorite professor. He was on and on and he said just slow down on the way between here and for union to your doctor's appointment, don't get caught again. You know, slow down, slow down, thank you. So my dad saved me. It wasn't my husband, it was my dad who saved me, because everybody loved dad.

Speaker 1: 47:08

That is for sure Great story Susan.

Speaker 4: 47:11

I haven't been been with you today, but it just gives me hope that one day you may pursue public office, Susan, I always had the best job I've had, the.

Speaker 3: 47:21

I've had the sidekick job and I've been asked to run many a time. And you know our oldest daughter, tyler, has said she said, mom, you're too nice and people would be mean to you, don't run. And she, she does. She does recognize that it is not, not a thing for the faint of heart.

Speaker 3: 47:40

Politics is a mean sport and I would always say to my children when people say unkind things or untrue things about us or your dad, kill them with kindness, because you don't know what they're going through. And sometimes people are just taking out their anger or frustration on you or your family. And you have to remember that you have to be able to be honest and have integrity. That's number one, Number one in any candidate I coach. You have to be able to go to sleep at night knowing you've done the best you can do and go home at night after a full day of trying to be an honorable citizen, trying to serve the public and doing your best. But I've had the great pleasure and the great privilege really of serving with somebody I think did a tremendous job for Virginia and everything I've been able to do I've been able to do is just gravy on top.

Speaker 4: 48:36

You both are consequential leaders. There's no question about that. Speaking of Tyler, give us an update on Tyler and Forrest and Brooke. What are they? All three are up to. You have at least you have a grandson One grandson.

Speaker 3: 48:49

Yes, tyler and her wonderful husband Harry live in Greenwich, connecticut, because they both have work up. That way they still claim Virginia. But they have one grandson for us, baby Wright Felix, named after George Felix. We love having them visit. Forrest and his wife Katie live near Alexandria, near our old stomping grounds in Mount Vernon. We just love having them visit too. Brooke is living here at the beach, working hard and loving life, gets a little surfing and fishing in between work. Everybody's wonderfully healthy and good and we're just so blessed.

Speaker 4: 49:26

And Dean, who's your four legged friend with you.

Speaker 3: 49:29

Oh gosh, I call him the COVID cave in. Brooke came home from college when South Carolina. She went there to finish her degree and college shut down for COVID. She came home and tears. Mom were in a new place and Virginia Beach. My friends are still in Mount Vernon. We don't have siblings or a pet or anything. We've got to go to SPCA and this dog sat on my feet but it's really her dog, but he follows me everywhere, salty.

Speaker 1: 49:55

You're still serving the family, exactly.

Speaker 3: 49:58

Yes.

Speaker 1: 49:59

Carthen, do you have anything else? No, go ahead, Well, my last question, they were going to wrap up. Susan, we've enjoyed this and it's. What are you doing other than Old Dominion? We know you're involved with that, and what else are you? And taking care of the dog? What are you doing in the grandchildren, I mean? So what's on your portfolio now other than those?

Speaker 3: 50:17

I stay really busy with a lot of meetings. I'm on a couple of different charitable boards. I brought an idea to Virginia Beach of doing the first ever charitable boat decorated boat contest to raise money for our huge rescue squad here in Virginia Beach, for the largest in the country volunteer rescue squad. So you know, when you bring an idea you have to work on it and so I'm real busy with that. But it's fun. The captain's party is at our house and then we go to another venue to watch all the boats the boat parade in December, which is really cool.

Speaker 3: 50:49

Governor Yonkin appointed me to be on another board of conservation and recreation and I love that board because we ever see all the Virginia State Parks and we live right next door to Virginia's first landing State Park, which I love, and I take all my friends hiking in there on a regular basis when we want to meet on business or on just for fun. We go hiking in there or biking in the winter in there, but it's great. So I love being involved with the parks, still campaigning for a lot of folks, helping on a delegate race here, and just stay super busy trying to keep up with a lot of people and a lot of friends and a lot of issues and ideas and just feel so blessed to still be in Virginia and still be married to Mr Adventure George, who's always making life interesting.

Speaker 1: 51:41

I can only imagine you're an accomplished standup paddleboarder too, aren't you?

Speaker 3: 51:46

I'm accomplished what?

Speaker 1: 51:47

Standup paddleboarder yeah.

Speaker 3: 51:49

I'll do anything for fun. Yes, I have my office. Here I have two kayaks, a pedal kayak and two paddle boards. So, yes, when I finish up zooming, I'm often there, or sometimes I do meetings on my bike, but I've already ridden this morning after walking the dog, so I'm good.

Speaker 1: 52:07

Good for you. Susan, thank you for joining us today. I mean, I really appreciate it.

Speaker 3: 52:11

Oh, thanks for all you guys do. I love, love how you showcase Virginia and the people that make Virginia great. So thanks for what you do. We love you Hope to see you both very soon.

Speaker 4: 52:21

Absolutely. We love you and appreciate all that you've done and continue to do. Give that fellow named George our best as well.

Speaker 3: 52:29

Thank you both so much, carthen and Brian. All the best to both of you. Keep up your great work.

Speaker 1: 52:33

Thank you for joining us today for the Virginians of Interest Podcast. We'd like to thank our host, Blue Ridge PBS. If you like what you heard today, please like and subscribe.