Speaker 3: 0:12

And now from the Blue Ridge PBS Studios in Roanoke, virginia. It's the Virginians of Interest Podcast, with your hosts Brian Campbell and Carthen Curran.

Speaker 1: 0:22

Hello, my name is Brian Campbell. Welcome to the Virginians of Interest Podcast. I'm here with my friend, carthen Curran today and we're really excited to have a special guest, the former First Lady of Virginia, jeanne Bealliles. She has known Carthen for a while, so I'm going to turn it over to Carthen for more introduction to her first question.

Speaker 4: 0:37

Thank you, brian Jeanne. Welcome to Virginians of Interest. We're delighted to have you. Thank you, I was going to ask if you could, for our listeners, talk a little bit about your background, your family background, to start off with.

Speaker 2: 0:56

Well, I guess it's well known that I did there around in educational efforts and priorities, and that's probably because of my background. I came from a family of North Carolina preachers, teachers and ministers, so it's interesting that I would grow up to be a person who still was interested in those things. Of course, think about it. In the time of my parents growing up and even mine, being a teacher meant that you were a woman, that's all. There just were no male teachers and of course that changed a little bit on down the road. But anyway, I was born in North Carolina but raised in Maryland, attended Washington College in Chester Town, maryland, which is the 10th oldest college in the country and of course was founded by, or partly with funds from, mr Washington. And then I went to graduate school and got a master's degree in teaching at Wesleyan University in Middletown, connecticut, and that's where I met Jerry.

Speaker 4: 1:56

Back to your mother. She attended, graduated from Duke University and at that time I've never asked you this. I mean, how many women were attending Duke University when your mom was there?

Speaker 2: 2:10

Well, not many. And keep in mind, this is just the diploma that you are referring to, carthage. As you've seen it, my mother's diploma from Duke is absolutely gorgeous, on sheepskin, written in Latin, and it indicated that she graduated two years after Duke became Duke. Remember it had a different name before the Duke family gave them all the money, but she was a Duke graduate. How did she get there? Because her father was a minister. Otherwise I doubt that a female in the 1920s would have gotten into Duke. But she did. She graduated and frankly, she was very disappointed with my high school. Guidance counselor told her that I would not be going to Duke.

Speaker 4: 2:52

Well like you. She was a pathfinder, there's no question about that. Also wanted you to, for audience, talk a little bit about your Southwest Virginia roots.

Speaker 2: 3:02

My Western Virginia roots. Yes, ma'am, the, the, the, the Tabor last name, well known in Tazewell County, is where my great grandfather and my grandfather came from. My grandfather was born my grandfather 1859. His father was captured outside after Gettysburg in Pennsylvania and died in a prison camp and my grandfather was three years old. Of course he never knew his father and he died in the late thirties, before I was born. But it was a name Tabor that we were always very, very proud of, and part of my work with, with Carthen and the, the alliance, has been to visit the schools in that part of the state, and not too long ago we were in the neighborhood of where my grand grandfather, great grandfather and lots of cousins came from. It was, it was exciting because I saw a part of Virginia that I saw briefly during the days when you traveled on a campaign, but on a campaign trail, but not any time to spend this time. I had a little time to spend and thanks Carthen for arranging that.

Speaker 4: 4:11

Yes, ma'am.

Speaker 1: 4:13

Tell me, because I'm not as familiar with your background as Carthen. As you said, you met Governor Bilal as in college Was he in graduate school and you're in grad, both of you in graduate school.

Speaker 2: 4:21

No, he was. I was a couple years ahead of him in a in school, but not in age. He was still older than I was. He was a senior. Came from, you know, a small town in Western Virginia. Speaking of Western Virginia, patrick County, had been raised by his grandparents in a house with no central heat. Think about it. Wow Wound up at Wesleyan University, which was one of the most expensive and the most prestigious colleges in America, and still is, of course, and that's where I met him. I had friends there from high school used to go up there for party weekends and so I was very familiar with it. And, frankly, when I graduated from college, my roommate asked me what I was doing one day and because she saw me sitting very studiously writing at the desk and I said I'm filling out an application. And she said what for? And I said an application for graduate school why?

Speaker 2: 5:13

would you do that? I said I don't want to go to work yet. So, guess what, wesleyan owned the West Press at that time and because of that newspaper the high school, college, elementary school newspaper that was worldwide they had enormous amounts of cash and they turned that cash into scholarships for people in education. And that's what I had. So I had a full pay scholarship and received a degree from Wesleyan. And that's when I met Jerry.

Speaker 1: 5:44

Well, I mean, it's had it. He ended up there. That's kind of so. He's a poor kid from Patrick County and he ends up at this prestigious school, not in Virginia, I don't know that. I've ever heard that story.

Speaker 2: 5:53

Well, I don't think I can tell the story properly, but I think it had to do something with a girl.

Speaker 1: 5:58

Oh, okay, gotcha Okay, thank you.

Speaker 2: 6:01

And then he had met a young woman. He was at Fishburne in military school. He had convinced his father to pay for him to go to military school, to get out of Patrick County and the house was no central heat in it. And he went there and met a young woman from the woman's school that was in Waynesboro, virginia, and it was her family that guided him to Wesleyan. And you just think about the little changes in a person's life that make a difference. And in that case it was this young woman whom we kept up with for years.

Speaker 1: 6:34

Well, so did you get married and then moved back to Patrick County or what, and then, I presume, he started a political career. What happened?

Speaker 2: 6:39

next I came back to Baltimore and lived at home and taught school. Remember, by this time you have a master's degree, so you're very everybody wants you, because it's important to have highly credentialed people on your staff. So I came back to Baltimore, baltimore County, and taught at a school in the part of the county that you would be familiar with because it's the working class part where all the Bethlehem Steels people and the Lever Brothers people live. But it was a wonderful experience.

Speaker 2: 7:11

Jerry came back to Fishburne and worked there for a year when we commuted and saw each other occasionally on weekends and then got married. Oh, and he had been excuse me, back up. He had been accepted to law school but couldn't go because he didn't really have the cash, because he was still paying for his college education at Westland, for which he was partly responsible. So he went back to Fishburne, worked there for a year. I worked in Maryland and his application to UVA had been accepted for law school and he put it on hold until the next year. So then we got married in 1964, I guess it was and had three wonderful years in Charlottesville. Think about Charlottesville in the 60s as being an exciting place, and it really was, not the football team, it was still an awful thing yes, the football team was still lousy back then.

Speaker 1: 8:02

So you were in roughly 64 to 67 range. Was that roughly when you were in Charlottesville?

Speaker 2: 8:09

Yeah, he graduated from UVA in 67. And well, this was sort of an interesting story. We had wonderful friends some of them were from very prominent government agencies I won't mention any name and families, as well as people like Jerry who were self-made and it worked their way up. And where were our friends in law school going to work? They were going to New York. They were going to Nixon Mives, they were going into the Peace Corps, they were saving the world, they were doing all these things. And Jerry came home to me one day and said I'm going to Richmond, virginia, and going to work in the Attorney General's office. Well, that was not what we were in our relationship, but anyway, so that's what happened.

Speaker 1: 8:52

That's where, after Charlottesville, you moved to Richmond.

Speaker 2: 8:54

That's exactly how we wound up in Richmond, Virginia. We had no connections here, didn't know anybody here, no family, even both of us having, you know, Virginia, North Carolina, Bruce, nothing in Richmond. So it was a brave thing to do, I think, and certainly it was a brave for Jerry to tell me, because I looked at him and said you promised me that in three years we'll be out of here and he said he would, but that didn't happen.

Speaker 1: 9:18

Well, how long were you there and where did you go next? We never left Richmond after that, oh yeah. So I didn't. Was he in the legislature? I thought, yeah, let me get to that.

Speaker 2: 9:26

Okay, yeah but he's got to, he starts. He starts, remember, in 67, in his late twenties I guess, to the AG's office and he did run for the legislature after a couple of years in private practice.

Speaker 2: 9:41

So he was in working for the state as the attorney general and it was an interesting job. I don't remember all the details and Jerry was never very forthcoming and he was a very private person, even with his family, but being the attorney general's office, you traveled all over the state representing the state in little small cases but you got to see what the state was about and I think that was a really learning experience for him.

Speaker 4: 10:06

Jeannie, early on did you know in your relationship with Jerry that he was gonna pursue a political career? Was that apparent early on? Did that evolve?

Speaker 2: 10:20

It evolved, I think, but certainly in our year that we spent in the atmosphere of Wesleyan. We were the only Southerners in this group of people who hung together, were educated together, some of whom who were in the undergraduate school, like Jerry, and some of whom were in the graduate school, like me. But for many of those fellows and girls who were from the most prestigious New England colleges and they looked at us as Southerners who were headed in the right direction because we said the right things and talked about the right things. But these people had no. They were all from New England, pennsylvania, new Jersey. They had no concept of what was going on in the South.

Speaker 2: 11:01

So that was a lot of our relationship with each other, as well as with the people that we associated with at Wesleyan.

Speaker 1: 11:13

Well, to help me understand, because I'm still trying to figure out, did he serve in the legislature for Richmond? I always thought it was from Patrick County, but he was in Richmond.

Speaker 4: 11:20

When they moved back to Richmond, he ran for the house of delegates. It was a floater seat, wasn't it James?

Speaker 2: 11:25

It was two jurisdictions, San Rico and Richmond.

Speaker 4: 11:28

The.

Speaker 1: 11:28

Multimember District days.

Speaker 4: 11:29

Right, yeah, right, and he ran for the house and served. Was it six years before running?

Speaker 2: 11:40

for Attorney General Howard Carwell, no.

Speaker 4: 11:42

Jerry, when he ran for the house, between the time he was elected to the house and when he ran for Attorney General, how long did he serve in the house? Was it three terms or?

Speaker 2: 11:51

He served three terms. Yes.

Speaker 2: 11:53

Well, the third one, I think, was he ran for Attorney General. But I'll tell you, the most interesting thing about him and everybody could have judged him by this if they had enough sense was to watch how he handled himself with Howard Carwell. Howard Carwell had been a delegate for a number of years. He had a radio show. He had run on the socialist ticket in 1935 or something like that to run for the Congressional seat. He was very, very colorful. He was blind as a bat, I mean, he lost his vision. Although he's a brilliant mind, he's still a legal mind, and his son drove him everywhere he went.

Speaker 2: 12:33

So one night Jerry and Howard Carwell were having a debate at the time radio station where they cared about local politics. The two of them had this debate on air and they walked out and Mr Carwell was looking for a son to pick him up, but he wasn't there yet and Jerry was by himself. This is before. You had people to wait on you. Jerry was by himself and so you started talking to Mr Carwell, his opponent, and finally his son never came to pick him up, but Jerry said I know where you live, which is near.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Willa Lawn and it was near where we live at the time. He said I know about where you live, I'll be glad to take you home. Let's do that. And so Carwell, who was very, very smart and extremely witty, looked at Jerry and said I will get in your car if they say I was last seen alive. Get in the car with Jerry, hold on. I remember as a page and Jerry used to love to tell that story. That's a great story about political opponents.

Speaker 1: 13:34

Howard was a very colorful one.

Speaker 4: 13:36

I was a page of the House of Delegates when Howard was in the house and also when Jerry was in the house, but Howard was a very colorful political figures Jeannie indicates so Jeannie, of course when he became Attorney General. What year is this, by the way? What year is he Mid?

Speaker 1: 13:49

70s.

Speaker 2: 13:50

He became Attorney General in 80, when he ran in 81, and so 80, first of 82.

Speaker 4: 13:56

Okay so when Chuck Robb was governor, he was Attorney General. Chuck Robb was governor, so it was Robb Davis Blouse. That was the ticket that all three were elected in 81. The Republicans had been in the governor's mansion at that point for 12 years, starting with Governor Holton, godwin and then Dalton, but Jeannie and, by the way, just to set the record straight, jerry got the nomination for Attorney General.

Speaker 2: 14:22

since you started on that subject, I want to finish up here. He got the nomination after a very, very difficult fight with the landed gentry of the Democratic Party Northern Virginia and other places who controlled everything. And here again is this little backward person from backward part of the state, even though he was at the delegate at this point from Richmond to the more sophisticated Northern Virginia Tidewater Democrats who controlled everything at that time. He was just a pain, but he won the nomination and some of them weren't happy about it. They weren't happy about it Not. Chuck and Davis were fine, but others were not.

Speaker 2: 15:01

So it was really quite an accomplishment.

Speaker 4: 15:04

Who did Jerry run against for the nomination in 81?

Speaker 2: 15:09

I can't even remember their names Chad, solomon, oh, that's right.

Speaker 4: 15:12

From Bath.

Speaker 2: 15:12

County, remember Chad, yeah Was one. Bath County From.

Speaker 4: 15:17

Northern Virginia.

Speaker 2: 15:18

Very, very liberal.

Speaker 1: 15:22

I can't remember Warnston anyway, yeah, okay, well, you've got me up to speed now. You've got me up to 1981.

Speaker 4: 15:30

So when he became Attorney General, obviously he was going to run for governor and you I'm sure knew that and I guess in your mind those four years while he was Attorney General, that he was going to see the nomination. I guess did you think about, perhaps, if you were First Lady, how would you, how would you take that role and go with it?

Speaker 2: 15:56

Well, to be perfectly honest, by being when he was Attorney General and was obviously going to run for governor against again strong opposition, we started campaigning. I started campaigning individually. My children were a little older then. We had some help from parents, that's, my mother and father were still alive then.

Speaker 2: 16:18

So, moving forward, I think that's the way to say this Moving forward for the next job required you to learn about the job that you have now, and I realized that Jerry might become governor. And if that was the case, where would I be? Well, it was really pretty easy, because in my travels around this Commonwealth for his race as Attorney General, I saw the things that were going on. Let me back up and tell you, whether you want to believe this or not, the spouse of the lesser candidate does not go to the glamorous places. She or he, if it's a he goes to the sort of out of the way places in those days where you have a little newspaper, a little radio station, but you're not covering the big times. And that's what I did.

Speaker 2: 17:06

Okay, where did that take me? It took me into Western and Southwest Virginia. Why? Because that's where you sent the spouse of the candidate to get a little notice, to get their name in the newspaper, but not you're not spending a lot of time and a lot of money or staff resources, Because lots of times I did this by myself. Well, what I found out? Was wow.

Speaker 2: 17:29

Factories were closing everywhere. Remember this is when Danville was beginning to see such a sad time. The factories that made furniture were beginning to shut down. The shoe factory in Lynchburg closed down, the coal mines always up in the roar, the tobacco farms along the border between North and South Carolina in decline. So all of this told, and every time you heard about this, you heard that even if you bought in new business or new industry, which are happening in other states, the people who live there will not qualify to run the machines, to do the work, because their literacy skills were so bad.

Speaker 2: 18:07

That was the bottom line, that, and in the 1950s, keep in mind, the reminders of racial segregation were very evident because there were many, many African Americans in this part of the state who were illiterate because the schools had been denied them and closed during this time after Brown v Board. It's maybe not a nice thing to say, but it's a frank thing to say. That is not the case now, because that schools are not closed for those reasons. Our illiteracy population in the rural areas is a different population and almost entirely a foreign born, the Hispanic or Afghan, for instance, a lot of Afghans who come here and who need jobs and will do the jobs in these parts of the state. So the clientele has changed, but the needs not changed in the 50, 40 years that I've been doing this.

Speaker 1: 19:06

35 years I'm trying to get us up to. So tell us about running for governor. So then, when you were talking about these, you were still attorney general, or was he, when you talked about these experiences, when he ran for governor?

Speaker 2: 19:18

But the same kind of experiences, except now you have a staff who helped you get there and brought you home at night safely Well, so what did you think Was?

Speaker 1: 19:25

there ever a discussion that like, hey, I'm going to run for governor, you know, let's, let's go, I'm sorry, I didn't understand Was there ever a discussion between the two of you that, hey, let's go run for governor and yeah, let's. What's this?

Speaker 2: 19:35

going to tell no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You just, you just knew that, so you didn't have to discuss it. Yeah, yeah, we discussed about things and and, and I would say, really, I know this is. This may be an imposition, but could you try to go by this particular person's house, who who's made an appeal to me to bring you by and things like that. But no, you didn't try to interfere. That's why there's expensive people like Darrell Martin and others.

Speaker 1: 20:04

So in 85 it was against direct correct.

Speaker 4: 20:07

He ran it against Wyatt.

Speaker 2: 20:08

Yeah, I remember you had the fight for the nomination to.

Speaker 4: 20:11

Yeah, he had a pretty. It was a better race between he and the lieutenant governor, dick Davis.

Speaker 2: 20:17

Dick Davis he and who Dick Davis? Oh, yeah, yeah Again, that was a.

Speaker 4: 20:24

Yeah, it was a spirited nomination fight. Why do red had a spirited, I think, nomination for his nomination? Both Wyatt and Jerry served in the house of delegates together. The race and 81. They ran for attorney general against each other. Wyatt came up short but then they ran against each other again in 85 and of course Jerry prevailed.

Speaker 1: 20:49

What was the handicap on that race back then, was it?

Speaker 4: 20:53

Well, you got to think about it. The Robb administration had been for the most part considered successful. So Jerry benefited, I think, from that goodwill and he, he, he prevailed pretty handily against Wyatt in 85. I think he won every district. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:17

So, so what was it like the morning after he got elected governor Let?

Speaker 2: 21:23

me just say something about what direct, since you brought him up, and I think I think this is very important with the the disgusting way politics have evolved in the last couple of years. It is so rewarding when you can tell somebody tells a story about someone that deserves credit. When Jerry died a few years ago you know long after I've been we've been divorced. But when he died a few years ago, wyatt direct wrote the loveliest editorial in the paper. I hope you all saw it.

Speaker 2: 21:52

I did about Jerry expressing the same thing about. You know, jerry's decency and why he, why he was such a fine governor, as we discussed earlier. Now, yes, that might happen today, but it probably wouldn't be sincere with Wyatt direct. It was totally sincere.

Speaker 4: 22:09

Actually, after, after Jerry became governor, he invited Wyatt to the governor's office for for a chat, and so they. They remain friends. They have been rivals, but it was a different time. As Jeanne indicated, they both care deeply about Virginia and they tried to. In my view, their campaign was based on their view of where to take. Virginia was not personality, was about policy. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:38

The good, the gentlemanly days. So we, before we came on the air, jeanne, I mentioned something to you. We'd had George Allen, former governor Allen, on the show and one of the questions we asked him was governors that he tried to emulate. And now I wasn't completely surprised, but a little surprised. He mentioned Charles Bliles and said he was. He thought he was a very impactful governor. Knowing Virginia's governors have to run for four years, they can't succeed themselves. So tell me a little bit about why you think you were there. You had the front row seat. Why was he so impactful? Was it to get all the way back to that way he was brought up and the Fishman Miller, in other words, was it just instilled in him to get to work and get after problems in a way that was so impactful?

Speaker 2: 23:20

That and and being raised, remember, by his grandparents and a house with no central heat, as I've already made made reference to. I think that sort of builds your character up a little bit. And he said that he talked very little about his childhood. His grandfather who was a wonderful man, by the way, he was a very successful peach and apple orchardist and farmer Patrick County everyone was a farmer, very, very wonderful guy.

Speaker 2: 23:48

And Jerry talks a little about the fact that he was raised by them. But he did say when as a young man, young youngster helping his grandfather in the fields around the house, that he would look up in the sky and see and hear airplanes go by and that was what made him decide his life would take a different turn and he would go to the Air Force Academy, which he never did and, as far as I know, never applied. But the fact that as a young child 11, 12, 13, he was saying I've got to do something better, and so he did it on his own. But everything he ever did was on his own, believe me.

Speaker 1: 24:29

Well, this is a good segue too. We were talking about we came in there about your role and that I don't know you as well as Carthen does, but even before I knew you, I knew of your work with literacy and these other things. So if you were to say to me, when did First Ladies begin to be impactful with their own sort of I hate to use word agenda because it sounds nefarious. But certainly he had his work to do, but it seemed like you were somebody who gained a reputation as a First Lady of not just being hostess to parties, but that you were out trying to make a difference. It was very helpful what you just said, where you saw firsthand in Southwest and Southside Virginia how literacy. Was that the spark that got in you to say, okay, that was definitely the spark.

Speaker 2: 25:08

Yeah, literacy was something that I saw. As I said early in his campaign for the AG's job and maybe even for a little bit of money ran, I guess Howard Carlaw in the local election that if I ever had a chance to do anything to make up, it is just a better place. I was never going to be a millionaire, I was never going to be able to give lots of money for something, but if I passionately cared about something that I'd been trained in, this is where it would make a difference and that, yeah. So that's exactly what happened. But the traveling around the state.

Speaker 2: 25:40

I want to emphasize that what I'm doing with Carfin now is repetitious of the community that I was talking about then, the parts of the Commonwealth that even today have the same kind of issues, the same kind of educational issues, and are they losing businesses because of it? Are they not going to put a factory in a certain county or town because of the lack of education? If that's the case, we need to fix it. So we of the Commonwealth Alliance provide educational opportunities for young people who you would never have thought in the million years would have been capable or qualified for going to college. We make it happen. I think that's exciting and it's a continuation, a more sophisticated continuation of what I started 30, some five years ago, which I'm still doing. I'm still doing, but we're not still doing.

Speaker 4: 26:33

in fact, jeannie was honored by then First Lady, barbara Bush, who also had a deep passion for literacy, as First Lady of the United States, and she honored Jeannie for her impactful work in the Commonwealth. Jeannie, can you reflect about some funny stories, or or just interesting stories, when you were First Lady and living in the mansion?

Speaker 2: 26:57

Oh well, we had some rules in the mansion about the kids, both of whom, when we moved there when he was elected, both kids were still in high school. They were a local Trinity Episcopal School, except for John, who wasn't quite old enough to get his license. They had a car to get to school themselves or they had to ride with a trooper. I'm trying to think of some story. Oh, one one. We had some rules. Obviously we had rules. We had four cats and a dog. The dog and the four cats were not allowed in the mansion ever. They lived in the house with the kids outside. They had to feed them, change the litter boxes, you know, do all the things you do with cats. I think we wound up losing one or two While in the four years we were there, but picked up a couple when we came home. It's the same number that we went down downtown with. They were just different animals.

Speaker 2: 27:55

We had rules, other rules such as if you are going to be late and not be home in time for supper, which was 6.30 period, no questions asked, you had to tell the kitchen by 3.30. If you wanted to bring somebody home for dinner as a guest, you couldn't just do it at the last minute. You had to let the kitchen know. So he has some real rules that we stuck by. The kids were pretty good about following through. John didn't finally get his license while he was in the mansion. Then, of course, laura started college and went away. He was pretty much in control of everything going on in the mansion, but not bringing the dogs into the big house, only into the little cottage next door. It was a great experience for him. I recommend it to anyone.

Speaker 1: 28:43

Let me ask you we talked a minute ago about why it's red. I think the way we get back to better politics is to talk a little bit about why it's possible. What are some stories back to? We said the governor-blas was an impactful governor. If you're going to be impactful, you've got to get things done. What was the political climate back from 85 to 89? Why do you think he was successful in getting things done both with the Republicans and Democrats?

Speaker 2: 29:09

Because he listened to both sides, because he never made threats, he never made accusations. He could decimate you but you never knew what happened because it was very quietly and carefully done. Only done was the best interests of the Commonwealth and at its best he had to have the best wishes or the best feelings of the Commonwealth in his line of thinking. But I'm also thinking about the times when he didn't do so well the black riots at Virginia Beach, which were very deadly, as you remember, and have gotten worse in the past years. Of course, the biggest thing was the coal miners strike. You'd have to call that a failure. Is that the end of a person's governorship because they failed in one aspect of the job? No, but it's still something you have to consider. If you were run for office, you're not going to hit 100% all the time. How you handle the letdown is what makes the difference. That's what Jerry did so well. Why did it work for him?

Speaker 2: 30:20

Because he included everybody, even people he didn't like he included them if they're part of the solution. I think maybe that's just my biased opinion, but maybe some of you have feelings, especially you, Carthen, because you were in the General Assembly and smart enough to figure out what was going on.

Speaker 4: 30:39

Governor Blas had a laser beam view of things. He had an incredible focus. He had an agenda that he knew he wanted to enact while he was governor. Now it helped him. The Democratic Party had pretty sizable majorities about the House and Senate, so that was helpful.

Speaker 4: 30:57

That was my other question, because I don't remember back in the past, but he had a very, he had a very focused agenda education, environment, transportation, economic development. He was very successful in all those areas. In a four-year period, which is not a very long time, he accomplished much of what he sought after to do and so I would say he's probably one in the 20th century, one of the most consequential governors, and I think Janie and her role and her activities was probably one of the consequential first. Ladies.

Speaker 1: 31:33

Before we move back to that, let me ask you a question. I was moving around Tadwater between 85 and 89. And people always complain about traffic. We know there's traffic problems in Northern Virginia. There were plenty of traffic problems in Tadwater. Was this transportation initiative that he brought trying to get?

Speaker 4: 31:50

the.

Speaker 2: 31:50

Transportation was one of his biggest issues. Yeah, yeah, was that related?

Speaker 1: 31:54

just to the peer congestion of more people and roads were not to speed the Poway Expressway.

Speaker 4: 32:01

All of that transportation just for example, around Richmond was because of his leadership. He was the governor who developed the first inland port in Front, royal Virginia, which was to help transport the port of Virginia and Nolfeck. This was another way to get our goods further inland. Further inland was very, very creative on his part. On the economic development front. He worked very hard with international companies to come to the Commonwealth so he had an only environment. He was also very productive.

Speaker 1: 32:41

Well, and we're going to move on to you in just a second Janie, but I'm curious about the fact. Can I talk, brian?

Speaker 2: 32:48

just made me think of one story in the transportation era that you probably don't know about, and it's so small and such a great great Jerry Bilal. Sir. He was the most happy about doing this when he was a General Assembly member. Remember? He's beaten Howard Carwell and he's serving in this strange district which includes both a city and a county. Guess what his first and most successful bill was? That he got passed, that he always took credit for.

Speaker 1: 33:13

What right. Turn on red means stop that you can go after I remember that that was a big deal, that was a big deal, that was.

Speaker 2: 33:21

Jerry.

Speaker 4: 33:22

He was so proud of that. Yeah, governor, godwin was governor. That's a legacy, but he signed the legislation yeah.

Speaker 1: 33:28

I remember that. I remember thinking this is crazy, you couldn't do that. Well, here's my next question. Then we're gonna move into you after this. Well, unless Carthen wants to talk about something else, when I think about and Carthen and I talk about this like as he worked for Doug Wilder, so you all were succeeded by Doug Wilder, which was an amazing accomplishment for the first African-American governor. But I also know there's also but Governor Wilder's stories of fights and internal stuff, and he's a very colorful character. I never associated any of that with Governor Bilal, so was that relationship a healthy one? Is that why I don't associate any squabbles with former Governor Wilder with former Governor Bilal's?

Speaker 2: 34:07

My guess is. My guess is that it was a relationship based on admiration for their talents, but always realizing that the other one would screw them if they could.

Speaker 2: 34:24

You know, what I mean by this the kindest, nicest person in the world asking you for something. But you know, you know that if they can do you in, they will do you in. That's exact those two. Those two had the same kind of brain. I mean, obviously Jerry was much more ethical and not smarter than definitely not smarter than Doug, but Doug you always, even to this day in his 90s. You have to be cognizant that Doug is there to get you if he needs to.

Speaker 1: 34:57

Well, I'll say this, and I don't know as well as Carthen is he doesn't seem to shy away from a fight, does he?

Speaker 2: 35:01

No no he doesn't, and you know I'm not gonna judge him on that. I mean to think about his background, think about being a black man in the Korean War and not being considered important enough to get the.

Speaker 1: 35:15

I read his biography and I thought he's an incredibly I'm glad to have met him through Carthen. He's an incredibly accomplished man Well.

Speaker 4: 35:21

Jerry does not get enough credit, and helping create the path for Doug to be elected. I think Governor Bowles was very effective in guvaniizing the support behind the Lieutenant Governor which Doug was at that point.

Speaker 2: 35:44

There's no question. He told what was the fellow's name from Newport News.

Speaker 4: 35:49

Alan Domonstein.

Speaker 2: 35:50

No, no, not that the one that he told he wanted to be Governor when he was a wonderful guy. Dick, help me.

Speaker 4: 36:00

I can't recall.

Speaker 2: 36:02

When he was a very influential delegate. He wanted to be Governor. He thought he might, could be Governor, and Jerry Bowles.

Speaker 4: 36:09

Oh wow, it was, it was it was it was. It was Dick Bagby.

Speaker 2: 36:13

Dick.

Speaker 1: 36:13

Bagby thank you, Dick Bagby. Thank you yeah right Well, and of course that was a close race with Governor Wilder and Marshall Coleman.

Speaker 4: 36:20

Marshall Coleman. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 36:23

Well, look we've. This has been fascinating, but we want to move into all the great stuff that you've done and that you continue to do. I mean, originally that was our intention, but thanks for the history of it.

Speaker 4: 36:33

I would like to say one more, one more Genie Jerry story. Near the end of Governor Bowles' term he hosted a national education summit for all the governors of the United States. It was in Charlottesville.

Speaker 1: 36:46

Which Bill Clinton was there, bill?

Speaker 4: 36:48

Clinton was Governor of Arkansas and George HW Bush was president and President Bush and Mrs Bush attended this conference and there was a fancy dinner at Monticello. So I'm gonna let Genie tell the story about Jonathan Bowles trying to get into this very exclusive dinner between first ladies and governors.

Speaker 2: 37:07

Well, he was a freshman at UVA. This was probably two months, this was in November and he'd started school in the end of August, early September, and he wanted to come to the dinner. At you know why? Because he adored George and Barbara Bush. He thought they were the most wonderful people in the whole wide world. So he wanted to come to the dinner. And he told us that he was going to come to the dinner and we looked at him and we said no, no, you can't come, nobody can come, no staff yes, spouses and the governor. Only no staff, no backup, no security. No, you cannot come. Well, I'm going to call Mrs, I'm gonna call Nancy. We said Nancy, I'm gonna call Nancy Sununu. Her husband, john Sununu, was the chief of staff at the time, controlled this whole operation and John so it was one way or the other was gonna get to that dinner. Well, he did, believe me, it was. It caused a little family kebuffle, but we told him he could not be going.

Speaker 1: 38:00

So it didn't have a happy ending. He did not get to the dinner. He did not get to the dinner.

Speaker 2: 38:04

He did not get to the dinner, but the next day he wound up in one of the rooms in the Rotonda where all the governors were meeting, room by room. There were three different rooms with three different subject matter and they were told again no staff, nobody, nobody, no students, no one, nobody. Walked into the room that Jerry and I were assigned to and there's Jonathan sitting there against the wall. So Resistance and if you ever tell him this story that I have out for public contact. He will never speak to me again.

Speaker 1: 38:36

So please don't. Well, unfortunately, it will be for public consumption.

Speaker 4: 38:39

So you're gonna start many, many, many spends right now. We won't break it up, but it just shows you persistence does pay off.

Speaker 1: 38:44

Yeah. So let's talk a little bit now about you know what you've been doing since then. So you've I don't know how you keep the schedule, because you know. I know you work with Carthen on the Commonwealth Alliance for Rural Colleges, but you're also on the board of Virginia Union. Is that correct? And what other? What else are you doing today? That's got you so busy.

Speaker 2: 39:04

Well, the Literacy Foundation, but of course that the way it works. We get some state money still and we raise some money. We still get some which supports the 35 or so private literacy groups across the Commonwealth. That does not take an enormous amount of time for me. It is done under the auspices of Mark Embley, who works both for cities and schools and for the Virginia Literacy Foundation, but we still make a difference. We still have people coming to us insane.

Speaker 2: 39:35

Let's talk about how we include families in literacy, and that's how come I happened to wind up in the Executive Mansion last week with Mrs Junkin, because they, the Junkin administration, is interested in family literacy programs, particularly in the devastated city of Petersburg, and I won't go into all the details because there's still a lot to be determined, but all I can say is thank heavens people are paying attention to the fact that it doesn't help to teach adults to read or children to read if they can't correspond and collaborate with one another, and that's what this is all about. So that, but that doesn't take an enormous amount of time. Union and Carthen take a lot of time if you want to know the truth.

Speaker 1: 40:17

Well, Carthen takes a lot of time for a lot of reasons, but but in the most it's very positive time.

Speaker 2: 40:23

I enjoy it as far as what other. What do I do for the world of culture? To pay homage to my mother? You forced me to listen to opera when I was a child. I grew up to love it, and so I'm involved with Virginia Opera as well.

Speaker 4: 40:37

What's your celebrated of an anniversary? Virginia Opera.

Speaker 2: 40:43

Well, I've been involved about. It's 50th year is next year, but this was just an anniversary of my 25 years or so with Virginia Opera, which is, as you know, based in Norfolk, and some people find that offensive. I don't. It doesn't matter where it's based, where is it performing. But let me mention something to your audience might be aware or not aware that Virginia Opera has been commissioned, which is a big deal to write an opera about the loving V Virginia case. Do you remember from Caroline County the interracial couple that were taken to court and, of course, the Supreme Court of the United States would upheld their marriage? That is going to be. It's been a movie, it's been a documentary. It's about to become an opera. I heard the first part of it a couple of weeks ago. We're beginning to hear parts of it and it is going to be spectacular. And can you imagine Virginia, richmond, virginia, is gonna be the center of the opera universe when this comes out. By the way, the date for presentation is 25, not this coming year, but it's 1925.

Speaker 1: 41:54

Let me ask you another. Every time you said, tell us I think of another question to ask you. So I was really. I didn't know your background, but there's years in Charlottesville sounded really meaningful to me. And then you go out on the campaign trail so you've essentially been involved in public service in Virginia for over 50 years. So what is it looking back on that and then looking forward? What do you think you got right and what do you feel like we're not getting right? Going forward that we still need to work on other than literacy?

Speaker 2: 42:22

Well, maybe I could have made some, a few decisions that were tougher in terms of where I put my energy and my effort is. It's always discouraging to put a lot of effort into something, that to have it fall apart and not come through. Not that I'm perfect or none of us are, but that would be not a specific disappointment but a general disappointment. I can't think of any really Well.

Speaker 1: 42:47

let me ask you one other question and I'm gonna hand it over to Carthen to wrap up is that we've talked on other podcasts about the state of politics today, which nobody thinks is good. Let me ask you this. Let me ask you this I think part of getting it better, personally, is the story you just told about Wyatt Durrett. I think part of it is reminding people that it doesn't have to be the way it is currently that there is. We existed at one time in a place that was much different. What do you think, if you were to be given a magic wand, that you would do to get us into a better place?

Speaker 2: 43:17

We would listen to each other. That's we're not doing that. I can't even watch the news on any channel, regardless of their political persuasion, because it's all so vicious and vitriolic. And you think back to the Wyatt Durrett's, the people of genuine humility, like Mills Godwin, who accomplished great things. I mean, they're gone now. They're gone from politics and I'm so sorry about that. Don't know that it can be changed, but right now I don't watch the news. Basically, I read a lot and online or several newspapers, but watching the news is so depressing because it's all bitter and it's anger and it's a lot of really stupid people. This is what's so depressing.

Speaker 1: 44:02

Amen to that and, by the way, I think part of that is because of anger cells. We all know that there's a certain marketing motive to keeping people ginned up, and I think that's part of the problem. Carthen.

Speaker 2: 44:13

Do you think that's what it is? Keeping them ginned up Well?

Speaker 1: 44:15

yeah, I think keeping people angry. There's some, and this gets to social media and other things. In other words, there's a benefit to somebody to having us at each other's throats and we've got to recognize that it's not in our best interest to be each other's throats.

Speaker 2: 44:26

Well, we haven't learned as a human being, as a population, to filter out. We get all this information, much more information we could ever get in any other lifetime on the face of the earth. We don't filter out all the junk, we just it all comes into our head, as you said, by social media or some other way, ie looking at television or in traveling to places and finding out in reality how things are going on. It all happens so fast, without any time to segregate and I hate to use that word segregate the true from the untrue, the good from the bad, the possible from the impossible. We don't do that anymore. We just let it all come in and cause havoc.

Speaker 4: 45:15

I agree.

Speaker 1: 45:16

Carthen, you want to wrap things up?

Speaker 4: 45:17

Sure, jeannie, just as we conclude, I wanted to talk about your long service on the Board of Trustees of Virginia Union, which is historically Black University, I think going back to 1866, right after the Civil War, it was founded. Would you like to talk a little bit about Virginia Union where it is today as an institution and its future?

Speaker 2: 45:42

Well, I'm still waiting for what's her name to give some of her money to Virginia Union, which she's given to all the other HBCUs in the country, if you know who I'm talking about?

Speaker 4: 45:51

Right, Jeff Bezos is Huh, yes, mckenzie, mckenzie.

Speaker 2: 45:57

But we have a fairly new president. He's been there for three years. Like Kimi's young, he's bright, he's very, he's trained as a minister, which is important because, remember, in Union, of the 1800 students, 400, and so 450 are schools of theology students and in many cases they're already through school but they're now getting a degree in theology and they're going to tonight's school and coming on weekends. That's a lot of what Virginia Union provides and servicing the Black community, but what it also survives, of course, is a place for young people to go, many of whom come from families without any education, where no one has ever been to college. It's just a pleasure to be with a group of people who have taken very small successes and made them into bigger and happier ones.

Speaker 2: 46:51

I'm thinking about the football team. Right now we have a football team that's without the nationally known. It was on national TV two weeks ago. We didn't have a band, we didn't have cheerleaders, we didn't have all those things until a few years ago when some of the alumni got together and said this is crazy, we have to have a band. So they figured it out and now we have a really pretty good band, even if we have to bring in some outsiders to fill some of the slots.

Speaker 2: 47:17

So I'm really proud of being a part of Virginia Union, and race as a subject is never discussed. Just, you have a problem. Let's figure it out. I have, as some of you may know, gotten one of our schools, one of Carthage schools, as I call them Eastern Mennonite and Virginia Union, to get together, because both organizations with different mindsets, have great music programs and we're trying to see if we can get any. Mennonite, which is a Western Virginia, conservative, religious-based school, and Virginia Union, an urban, religious-based school. Let's don't talk about our differences, let's just figure out what we can do together and work on it and, as far as I know, I told them, I said I'll bring you all together and I'm walking away. You have to figure out how best to make it happen and that's what.

Speaker 4: 48:09

I hope to do Well, before I turn it over to Brian to thank our sponsors, I want to thank you, jeannie, for your passion for education for young people and your commitment to public service.

Speaker 1: 48:22

Thank you and let me, as we close, say the same thing. I mean what impresses me about you. You've been bringing people together for a long time and you continue to do it and we thank you and bless you for that. So thank you for joining us today for the Virginians of Interest Podcast. We'd like to thank Blue Ridge PBS for hosting us today. If you like what you hear, please like and subscribe to this podcast.

Speaker 3: 48:45

Thank you for listening to the Virginians of Interest Podcast. To hear other episodes of this podcast, head to virginiansofinterestcom.